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Love loss
Homosexuals, churches remain widely divided
By Steve Arney
sarney@pantagraph.com

Partners Olwen Hansen-Blake, left, and Shelley Hansen-Blake react at the concession speech for people opposed to the gay marriage amendment, in Madison, Wis., on Tuesday. The proposal to amend the state constitution to ban same-sex marriage and civil unions passed, along with similar amendments in six other states. (Associated Press/CRAIG SCHREINER)
At a Methodist church in Normal the other night, about 30 people gathered to discuss the topic "Making a case for same-sex marriage: a Christian perspective."

Most people were either from the GLBT community (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender) or sympathetic to them.

But a handful of Christians, sitting together and inclined to take the Bible at its literal word, were unconvinced of the case being made for same-sex marriage.

One among this group stated that her Bible-rooted belief is that homosexuality is a sin.

"That doesn't mean I'm unloving. That seems to be the voice that's coming out. I feel attacked by that," she said.

Soon after, a woman at the meeting, attending with her female life partner, responded. The so-called love of fundamentalist Christianity calls her a sinner, tells her she shouldn't be in certain jobs, such as school teacher, and rejects her very essence.

"'I love you but I'm going to limit you.' It comes across as disingenuous," said the woman.

Another among the handful replied, resentful at a perceived labeling, "You added that to us."

Churches and homosexual communities continue to be, in large part, widely divided, with Tuesday providing illumination.

Voters in seven states approved constitutional amendments defining marriage as, exclusively, a union between a man and a woman. One state, Arizona, voted against a marriage amendment; it is the only one in the nation ever to do so. Twenty states voted for marriage amendments in prior elections.

The score is 27-1, and in each case the ballot measures have been driven largely by conservative Protestants and Catholics.

The polarization involves something deeper still -- more personal and more visceral. And it has to do with love and the perception that Christians hate.

Michael Pullin helped organize the event and held it at his church, First United Methodist Church in Normal. He later said he was both moved in sensing the hurt that a predominantly Christian nation has inflicted on gays but also in the genuine hurt felt by that handful of Christians in attendance.

It is a powerful insult indeed to tell Christians they have broken a commandment that Jesus held dearly -- to love your neighbor as yourself.

So polarized has this nation become during the gay-rights movement and the marriage-amendment movement that to gays, generally, "Christianity" has become synonymous with vitriolic condemnations, said the Rev. Jennifer Kottler who moderated Normal's discussion.

She is deputy director of the Chicago-based Protestants for the Common Good, a social-justice group in favor of same-sex marriage. She is ordained in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).

Still, GLBT strangers said they instinctively recoil when they see her in her clerical collar. "The first reaction is almost a fear. It's, 'What are you going to say to me?'"

A reaction from her best friend, a lesbian, when Kottler announced she was entering seminary: "She burst into tears. I said, 'What's wrong?' She said, 'This means you're not going to love us anymore.' That's how deep the pain goes."

The forum in Normal was a civilized discourse, and therein contained a glimmer that the nation has the potential for at least some thawing, said Pullin.

"Invariably, once we get to know people who are not like us, I think it opens our hearts," said Pullin. "I have to hope so. My experience is that it can."



The votes



Last week's results: Colorado, Idaho, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia and Wisconsin voted to make marriage exclusively between a man and a woman. Arizona rejected a marriage amendment. Gay marriage remains illegal in Arizona.

Illinois: Proposed amendment for 2006 was kept off the ballot over lack of valid signatures.

Prior elections: Marriage amendments approved by 20 other states.

Public opinion



The Pew Research Center in a poll in July found that:

• Americans oppose same-sex marriage by a margin of 56 to 35 percent, with 9 percent unsure.

• A majority -- 54 percent to 42 percent -- favor granting gay and lesbian couples legal privileges similar to those enjoyed by married couples.

The Scriptural issue



The issue for Christians, made simple at the risk of oversimplifying, revolves around Bible interpretation.

Walter Wink, a nationally known minister and proponent of gay marriage, writes that the central question revolves around a passage in the Bible book Romans, where the Apostle Paul clearly defines homosexual relationship as sinful. There are other Bible passages commonly cited -- none of them supporting same-sex union, he added. But Wink also concludes Paul didn't understand sexual orientation and that same-sex orientation possibly is genetic.

• Approving of gay unions is considerably easier for Christians looking at the Bible with "historical perspective" or who conclude the Bible "contains" the word of God but is written by fallible people capable of error and prone to cultural influence.

• Approving of gay unions as sanctioned by God is next to impossible for Christians who espouse that the Bible is, in all parts, the inerrant word of God. That is, containing no mistakes, God-breathed, made perfect through the working of the Holy Spirit within the Bible authors.

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Ballot initiatives on same-sex marriage offer an illustration of a divided America. In the backdrop are issues of personal pain, rejection and doubts that Christians really love.
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Reader comments on this story - 112 total

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

Confused wrote on Mar 20, 2007 8:50 AM:

" I keep reading responses about how christians should keep their belief out of the laws because they don't belong there. Study the constitution and how our country was founded. Christianity has played a vital role in building many great things about our country. Our country's founders were dominantly christian men. "

MORE for Yad Yada... wrote on Nov 25, 2006 6:01 AM:

" I know it's a stretch- I believe this is a fair comparison: what if being gay were the accepted norm in the eyes of society, religion, etc. You as a straight man who definitely feels drawn to females- would u be able to supress that identity and force yourself to be opposite of what u were born to be? Further- if u felt u could not- would u at least be able to fake or "discipline" yourself into being the other way simply to quell society's expectations, ie; demands? Again- thanks for your kind thoughtfulness. "

To Yada Yada... wrote on Nov 25, 2006 6:01 AM:

" I commend u for polite respect- and the fairness of u'r ?'s. If I may offer: the gay mind is no different than the hetero mind. Once that notion is set aside a clearer path opens. Next- many gay men accept their gayness and live honest, open lives. Other gay men are confused or shamed, and have hidden or retreated into painful lives taking wives- the gay person remains largely unfulfilled or downright miserable- but what about the wife (kids?) who he pulls into his lie? Would you encourage your daughter to marry one of these gay men who decides to try a straight marriage to see if he can simply "discipline himself into being straight"? Is this the husband you would wish for your daughter? "

YadaYada wrote on Nov 24, 2006 5:16 PM:

" Appreciate your response. But, you didn't really help me to understand what goes on inside the homosexual mind. You said that you couldn't marry a woman and love her because you would always be looking at a man? I look at other women all the time, but I do not love my wife any less. I feel a little ashamed of myself for even being physically attracted to other women, but, nevertheless, I remain true to my wife and in love with her. BTW, what keeps you from looking at men other than your mate? Do you exercise discipline? Why couldn't you have a wife and kids (and grandkids) like I do and exercise discipline? Isn't that a major problem with homsexuals; they are notorious for being untrue to their mates? There was a documentary on TV a couple years ago that disclosed the average homosexual male has dozens of different male partners in a single year's time. Also, those "act up" people behaving like they do in those parades don't help the homosexual cause. Keep it in the bedroom; I do. "

To YadaYada wrote on Nov 24, 2006 2:30 PM:

" Think about it this way. Did you chose to be attracted to the oppisite sex or when you were a teenager did you just were attracted to the oppisite sex? As when i was a teenager i was attracted to the same sex. I do not fluant it, I am masucline man. The man i live with is a masucline man. We live like men working and supporting each other. We watch sports. We work in the yard. We can work with wood. We are just gay. GOD made me this way. If i had the chose, i could have gotten married to a women, in a loveless marriage, because i would be looking at men, not her. I chose to declare myself gay and that is the way it is. This is not about what God did. Its about law. Not religion, LAW. I wish the bible thumpers would keep there bilble out of my law book and my life. And i could go back to my quiet life with the MAN i love. "

YadaYada wrote on Nov 24, 2006 1:35 PM:

" I have a question of you who claim God created you gay. BTW, I contend that God created us all heterosexual. So, if God created us all as we are, then God made man; God made woman; God made masculine man; God made effeminate man; God made masculine woman; God made effeminate woman. It is not difficult for heterosexuals to determine their rightful roles; they merely check out their genetalia and marry the opposite sex. But, how do you know, when God makes you Gay, whether you are a masculine man or woman, or, whether you are an effeminate man or woman? Do you have to behave in a certain way or dress a certain way to alert others as to your personal propensities? Also, is is o.k. for two masculine men to marry each other or two effeminate women? Or, would that be wierd? If adults are confused about this, so are the children. "

Christians are becoming increasingly... wrote on Nov 23, 2006 2:24 PM:

" Many in our world are learning the lesson that sooner or later to achieve peace we must reconcile and come together; we are becoming increasingly aware that those we’ve always thought of as ”Christians” are becoming less and less a part of those folks who will make Christ’s intended peace happen. "

Its been est. wrote on Nov 23, 2006 11:27 AM:

" That the bible is set aside when people want to. So i wouldn't bring that up. Remember no shellfish. Women must obey men. Ok to own another human. Eye for an eye. Any other part f the bilble any one else can thank that has been thrown aside in america today and everyone seems ok with. the problem is no one church can make the laws. That means you have to have a different reason to keep the right of CIVIL marriage away from gays. I don't care for your CHURCH weddings anyway to long. "

This is to Everyone, wrote on Nov 23, 2006 8:26 AM:

" If this gay stuff can pass through our lives and we are supposed to take it in stride, then why can't we just legalize prostitution. If we set the bible aside for this, then let's legalize prostitution. If it's "OK" for 2 men to get it on, then it should be "OK" for a man and a woman to get it on and one of them get a few bucks for it. After we get this passed, lets work on legalizing sex with animals. As long as the bible is out of it, as many here want, then this will be acceptable with you. "

To To Ridculous wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:33 PM:

" You need to READ what this person wrote. They have a very valid point and I have espoused it for quite some time. Anyone should be able to enter into a civil union and receive all the benefits of that union as mandated by the state. Marriage could be considered the purview of the church--to be administered by each church as they see fit. The Christian Coalition can froth at the mouth and not marry anyone they deem not to be worthy. The more moderate churches can marry those they feel are marrying because of commitment. It's a win win situation and upholds our American ideals of separation of church and state. "

To: TO Ridculous wrote on Nov 22, 2006 3:16 PM:

" Well, you just put it out there. The undermining of traditional marriage. "

TO Ridculous wrote on Nov 22, 2006 10:27 AM:

" It is a civil rights issues. The right to emplyment and finding a place to live is a recent right. Think it was oked in Bloomington recently. And now in Illinos. The federal government does not recognize it. The right to live in a loving relationship, to see your love one while in the hospital to collect your loved ones pension after many many years of togetherness. To adopt and raise children without the christian right trying to tellyou you can not. Tofile taxes together. To be able to make decisions based on you partners medical care. Heterosexual couple enjoys these rights everyday. Even if they met and married in the same week. But a couple who is gay can not after 50 years. and dont say get a lwayer, that is not the final answer. The other part is maybe the government should not regonzie any MARRIAGE, make that a completely religious think. And everyone has to have civil union. Is that better? "

To Jennifer wrote on Nov 22, 2006 10:26 AM:

" Yes, of course...Christans are the only group of people on the planet that hate. Everyone else is always at peace with everyone else. Might be time for you to wake up to the real world. "

From a Gay man wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:59 AM:

" Dear Christians.. please leave your beliefs out of our laws. They don't belong there. Most of us gay people.. who.. on a side note... I have never met one gay person who didn't believe they were born this way.... really are not concerned with what the Christian church believes. Christians can become tyranical, and irrational. We don't have too much time for that. Have a blessed day. "

a wish wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:55 AM:

" Sometimes I wish we could deny "Chrisitians" their right to free speech. Poor God... I am sure he didn't expect it to get this bad. Aren't Christians arms supposed to be spread wide? I have yet to see one who's is. Christianity and the church has become "us vs. them", and all of you forget God. Don't worry gay people... you can always rest easy knowing you have reason on your side... oh.. and God. "

Jennifer wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:36 AM:

" Christians will always find a reason to hate. "

I feel completely ridiculous... wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:24 AM:

" ...for making the time to reply to these bizzarre and twisted "Christian" comments with two sentences. Imagine how ridiculous I see those who wrote on for paragraphs! "

Ridiculous wrote on Nov 21, 2006 11:45 PM:

" We all want our "sin of choice" to be "OK" and we find a million different ways to justify it. In my life (I am a Christian) it was premarital sex. I justified it by telling myself that I was going to marry this person which I did. But it was still wrong in God's eyes, even if everyone else says, "who cares?" Now, I still sin every day mind you, and that is wrong too. I am no better or worse than a practicing homosexual in this sense. I want to say that I do not support gay marriage. I do not hate homosexuals, because that is wrong too. For those who compare the civil rights movement to the "gay rights movement" come on! Homosexuals are not segregated in restaurants, are not prevented from voting, not sent to the ghetto, separated from the rest of us--and why, because they are able to obtain credit, employment, with insurance, a 401k and other benefits just like the rest of us-- because we already have laws about not judging a person's employability or credit worthiness based on sexual orientation. "

To all the bible quoters: wrote on Nov 21, 2006 9:03 PM:

" No you can still say what you want. But remember gays are human. You can worship as is mentioned in the constitution (or not at all if you choose too) and no government entity can tell you you are wrong. THe constitution is set up so the minority still has a voice. I was raised christian and chose not to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. Not because i didn't agree with it, but because people (a minority i KNow) use the bible to throw hate in my face because "the bible says so". I can not, will not follow that religion and when i am at my judgment i will tell God that to his face. But you would never understand because you have o follow and you will never go against the grain. whatever W says is law right? "

To "To all the bible quoters:" wrote on Nov 21, 2006 8:00 PM:

" That’s as bad as trying to use the Bible to say Jesus approves of homosexual activities. Maybe you could use the U.S. Constitution to try and say everyone has Freedom of Speech except for Christians. Oh, I think some of you are already trying to do that already. "

To all the bible quoters: wrote on Nov 21, 2006 5:30 PM:

" I was just watching tv and a man quoted the bible on why it is ok for him to control his wife. Beat, abuse and call her names. Do you still want to use that on why gays are sinners? Or are of you men who treat your wifes right sinners? "

Lack of education wrote on Nov 21, 2006 12:55 PM:

" Man really messed this one up...Jesus never had anything against homosexuals, although others around him did. So how is it 'Christian' that homosexuals are sinful? Look up what Jesus' greatest commandment is, and you'll see both churches and the gay movement aren't making THAT the priority in this situation, but only their own agendas. Make love and honoring God the priority, not sexual orientation. We're all loved by Him despite it, so let's move on. "

bebe wrote on Nov 21, 2006 11:36 AM:

" i respect all gay people and 50% of my friends are gay, but im not gay. i bumped into this web page and decided to tell you guys that I LOVE ALL OF U and keep goen for what you r looking 4 dont give up "

to: to sm wrote on Nov 21, 2006 10:42 AM:

" Actually it is very true. It is medically proven that gay people are born that way...its not just a lifestyle they one day just choose to live. They may not realize til they are older, but people cant help who they love. There are no categories here...we are ALL people and should all have the same rights. Period. "

To SM wrote on Nov 20, 2006 10:37 PM:

" That's not true. I know men who are very creative and musically inclined that some might categorize as effeminate, yet are totally heterosexual. I also know women who are very sturdily built and have strong personalities, and yet they are totally heterosexual. I get tired of all this categorizing of people on whether you think they're a full man or a full woman. No wonder some children can get confused about who they are and how they should feel with unfair prejudice yours. "

SM wrote on Nov 20, 2006 6:58 PM:

" I honestly do not think that being gay is a sin. People are born gay, it is a hormonal imbalance (too little estrogen, to little testosterone...). How can god punish someone for that or not love them?? God loves EVERYONE. Just because a woman doesnt find a man attractive sure doesnt mean she should be alone forever and never experience love. You people really suck that oppose this. Shame on you. They are humans just like us...and to think it is perverse??? Get a freakin life!!! "

To everyone wrote on Nov 20, 2006 2:57 PM:

" No one is listening to eachother and is going to be stubborn and say what they want to say. Really it's not going to change anyone's opinion. Marriage is a contract and the only reason people choose to get married in a church is based on their religion. You can also get married in a courthouse and never have the whole church thing. What is the difference? It's just marriage!! Marriage is about love and wanting to spend the rest of your life with someone. Who cares about what sex they are. Get over it, because it's going to happen someday when 2 men and 2 women can get married. And I'll be right there to support that movement. "

Washed in the Blood wrote on Nov 20, 2006 2:32 PM:

" Again................unfortunately, it seems a lot of people in B/N are ignorant when it comes to the Bible and Christianity. "

Being Gay is NOT, Part II wrote on Nov 20, 2006 1:51 PM:

" And, one more thing, when you pick something out of the Bible to cling and justify hateful comments and actions, you can't pick and choose. You either take it in it's entirety (ridiculous, isn't it?) or you have to realize that we not longer live in the cultural milieu of Biblical and early Christian times and we're no longer given missives by the Popes of the early church. "

Being Gay is NOT a Sin wrote on Nov 20, 2006 1:51 PM:

" You are born gay and in God's image. It is not a choice. It is not a "lifestyle" in my opinion, no more than a man and a woman living in a union is a "lifestyle". Gay people are born, grow up, go to school, get jobs, find a life partner, buy houses, raise children, support one another in their lives, take care of aging parents, and are Christian--if raised in that faith. While I am heterosexual, I and my husband have the love of several gay relatives who have generosity in their hearts. I don't have to hate any sin because I do not even espouse that they are sinners at all. These gay relatives are more generous than many church going Christians, give of their time and money to worthy causes and will drop everything to come to the side of parents or siblings in need. The hate from Christians is extremely discouraging and actually a fearful thing for our society and culture. "

Washed in the Blood wrote on Nov 20, 2006 1:19 PM:

" Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people in B/N are ignorant when it comes to the Bible and Christianity? Quit taking random verses out of random books in the OLD Testament and apply it to this issue. READ the New Testament. Read Christ's teachings. CHRISTIANS (don't get them confused with the radicals) follow Christ as their example. Their goal is to be "just like Jesus." If you're an educated person whether you're a Christian or not, you'll know that Christ was about Love. Hate the sin......not the sinner. "

Washed in the Blood wrote on Nov 20, 2006 1:09 PM:

" A question................Nature/Natural: What is it? Is it different for everyone? The very essence of nature is survival. We (humans) must breathe. That's natural. We must eat. Drink. Etc. We must procreate. If a species (any species) is unable to procreate, how will it survive? "

To AJ wrote on Nov 20, 2006 9:37 AM:

" All that out of not wanting gay marriage. Are you trippin'? "

AJ wrote on Nov 20, 2006 8:04 AM:

" I am appalled and ashamed at the bigotry and hatred in these messages. The only Christians who clearly saw and reacted to the Third Reich - the neo-orthodox Christians like Paul Tillich and Dietrich Bonhoeffer - were Christians who did not take a fundamentalist approach to the Bible or Christian tradition, and who were clear about the evil of limiting the rights of human beings based on any ideology including an ideology touting the Bible. The Christians who shared the fundamentalist beliefs declared here, along with their overly tolerant counterparts, fell in line with Hitler. James Luther Adams, who actually worked with Bonhoeffer against Hitler in Germany, saw the religious right for what it was as far back as the 1980s: a mask for fascism. This country is becoming more fascist by the minute, and the liberals who just want everyone to get along - like the Methodist pastor in the article - don't have what it takes to oppose it. Without a new generation of Bonhoeffers and Tillichs, I fear America's gays are going to end up where Germany's did, and it will be these "loving" "Christians" who help put them there. "

Enlightenment: wrote on Nov 19, 2006 8:15 PM:

" The sin is wrong; the sinner can be saved if one repents of one's sin. All of the glory goes to God through my lord and savior: Christ Jesus! Peace be with you! "

Enlightenment: wrote on Nov 19, 2006 8:06 PM:

" Genesis 19:24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; "

To: TO: In repsonse to nature wrote on Nov 19, 2006 5:51 PM:

" Yep! You can stick a plug any where you want, but unless you stick it in an electrical outlet specifically designed for it, there’s no connection. I’m not for the government getting into any of this and I’m not for changing marriage or civil unions. That type of sexual activity is a choice that belongs to those consenting adults and should be kept in their own bedrooms. That’s what they say anyway. Except for the one who said earlier something about not liking locked doors. I guess they don’t have kids. Maybe they don’t care. "

To all who use the bible to attack homosexuality wrote on Nov 19, 2006 12:03 PM:

" I assume all of you would also like to see slavery come back, because one of MANY passages regulating (not condemning) slavery in the bible is this one from Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV) So I guess we would have to get our slaves from Canada or Mexico. Come on??? Are you really going to use this political document as the word of god?? "

TO: In repsonse to nature wrote on Nov 19, 2006 12:00 PM:

" I noticed your response was limited. You conveniently did not respond to the part about "Man does not fit with man and woman does not fit with woman". The abnormality of this is not biblical but biological. I fully support civil unions for gay and lesbian couples and equal rights for all people but leave marriage alone. Please explain what is wrong with that solution. "

In response to Nature wrote on Nov 19, 2006 11:12 AM:

" It was also illegal to marry people of different races. It was legal to own another human (alos mandated as ok in the bible) for women not to vote, and many other things that have changed both in the constitution and never able to make it into the constitution. This is no different. Unless we need to change all those other laws back. Any other tries. I ahve an answer for all of the reasons. "

To: I knew it couldn't happen wrote on Nov 18, 2006 9:25 PM:

" Please read the resonse from "Nature". "

To “To To:Re” wrote on Nov 18, 2006 2:30 PM:

" In 1947, a shepherd boy accidentally found ancient scrolls by throwing a rock into a cave. The rock hit clay pottery where some of the scrolls had been stored. Six seasons of intensive excavation produced more scrolls, and the scholars were sure beyond any reasonable doubt that the scrolls originated from a conservative Jewish community which flourished between 125 BC and AD 68. When these scrolls were compared to the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures Jewish scholars had, which were copies from the 9th and 10th centuries AD, they were found to be “almost identical.” These scrolls are called the Dead Sea Scrolls, which include all the Books of the Old Testament, except for the Book of Esther. The Jewish scrolls are a wonderful example of the reliability of the Old Testament scriptures and the tender care which the Jewish scribes down through the centuries took in accurately copying the sacred Scriptures. Also, the scrolls have helped scholars reconstruct the history of Israel and the Holy Land area between 300 B.C. and A.D. 135.” See: www.davinci-code-breaker.com/davincicode-truth-of-dead-sea-scrolls.htm and www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html "

To "To To:Re" wrote on Nov 18, 2006 12:43 PM:

" “In 1947, seeking a lost animal in the rugged, arid terrain of the Judean desert, an Arab shepherd boy threw a rock into a small cave, hoping to locate and startle the wayward goat. Instead of hearing the desired bleating of a frightened animal, the seeker heard the unmistakable crash of breaking pottery. It could well be called the 'rock' heard 'round the world! Moving carefully into the opening he discovered numerous clay vessels, which were filled with hundreds of very ancient scrolls. Close examination revealed an exciting discovery -- among these scrolls were copies of every old testament book (except Esther), but most importantly, these scrolls predated some of the most respected old testaments copies by over 1000 years! This historic find of nearly 1000 scrolls came to be called 'The Dead Sea Scrolls,' due to the area in which they were found. Side by side comparison of modern texts along with these scrolls confirmed an amazing fact -- the text of the old testament has been nearly perfectly preserved for at least the last 2000 years!” www.davinci-code-breaker.com/davincicode-truth-of-dead-sea-scrolls.htm "

I knew it couldn't happen wrote on Nov 18, 2006 11:09 AM:

" I posted a few days ago for someone to give me a non religous resason against gays. And no one has yet. Why not because they can't? If they try to it sound like what it is, HATE! People have always used religion, and not just christians either, to hate others. They quote the Bible, Torah or Koran on why their hate is ok. But evenything i learned has said that this god (all the same god at that, isn't that funny) is not about hate. Unless he is in heaven eggin' us on to fight among each other, it is you who spew the hate that is the problem not the gays. I still have the floor open for anyone who can give a case against marriage with out quoteing the bible. "

To Twisted Agenda wrote on Nov 18, 2006 9:33 AM:

" The LDS church observes the Sabbath. "

To To:Re wrote on Nov 18, 2006 8:23 AM:

" The King James Version, sad to say, is one more iteration of a Bible translation that isn't necessarily true to the source. Source documents are so fragmented that the Bible was written from second, third, fourth and fifth hand writings, changed and rewritten to reflect the times, a reigning monarch (King James, for instance), incorrect translations, different word meanings and so on. The Bible is a patchwork of writings from the Torah, other Hebrew writings, sketchy documents found here and there. The King James version is poetic, obtuse and written in a version of the English language that isn't spoken anymore. Yes, I am a Christian and a person of faith but I find that the inquiry and investigation into how Christianity came about and it's history gives me a great deal of insight into how it is today. And yes, I also feel that gay people have a right to form partnerships, even marry. They are also made in God's image. "

ConsiderThis wrote on Nov 17, 2006 6:42 PM:

" This whole issue is just another battle in the culture war. Win in the court of public opinion and it can go to the ballot box. Win at the balllot box and you have a chance at affecting legislation. Affect legislation and you have a chance at changing the culture. Change the culture and you change society and the mission is accomplished. This is the plan of the secularists whether its gay rights, the economy, or whatever. Legalizing gay marriage/unions or acceptance in the church is the least of it. Follow the power. Follow the money. "

To "RE: ??" wrote on Nov 17, 2006 4:56 PM:

" There are many rules and regulations set forth in various churches, but contrary to what you've been taught by those who despise the Bible, the ironclad principles you seek can be found in the old King James Version. "

RE: ?? wrote on Nov 17, 2006 4:10 PM:

" I agree that man wrote down Gods words in the bible. I also believe that the bible has been changed by man so often over time that it reflects little of the original truth. Rules were changed by kings and Popes who were interested more in their own affairs than in religion. Different interpretations have changed in different version of the bible. Even Christianity itself has been so differently interpreted that it spawned smaller sects. You can be Christian, but more specifically Catholic, or Lutheran, or Presbytarian, etc. There are rules and practices still used in modern day religion that were originally put in place by ruling classes, not by religious leaders, who were forced to comply. At this point, I find it difficult to form an ironclad opinion on something that affects the world so little. "

Moral of the Story wrote on Nov 17, 2006 11:33 AM:

" Other parables can come from other sources...Aesop's Fables predated our current version of the Bible and teaches many of the same ideas. No one has said that the Bible is insignificant but that one should take a thinking view of who, how and when it was written. The faith is the same but when you start to pick and choose which "laws" are still around and which "laws" you're going to hang on to dearly, then you have to stop and THINK. You can't pick and choose. If you're going to rant against homosexuality, you have to also rant against a LOT of other things we conveniently overlook but are in the Bible in black and white. If you invoked Hammurabi's Code (an eye for an eye--quoted by several Biblical quoters on here), then you have to give like for like today. You just can't pick and choose. "

already updated... wrote on Nov 17, 2006 9:38 AM:

" God already updated those horrible punishments from the Old Testament....it's called sending his Son to die for our sins. We are no longer in charge of the ultimate judgement of others...God is. Please seek out a bible scholar to explain in detail. Also, before you start taking "eye for an eye" seriously, ask the same scholar what a parable is. Jesus told heavenly stories with earthly meanings so that we could understand what he was trying to teach us. The bible also says we are the salt of the earth....don't think the literal sense was the way to take that. However, he does not use stories to define right from wrong...that stuff he says straight out. "

confused wrote on Nov 17, 2006 9:32 AM:

" There is talk here about the bible condemning homosexuality only because times were different. I am confused. Does that mean that murder, lying, cheating, stealing, and all of the rest of ten commandments as well as various other items in the bible are also null and void? If any part of the bible is outdated because the times have changed...wouldn't all of them be outdated? Yes, things have changed...included how crimes are punished. We no longer hang people in the middle of town with a crowd watching. That doesn't change the fact that what the person did was wrong. Just because times have changed does not change basic right from wrong...no matter how often you tell yourself it does. "

Nature wrote on Nov 17, 2006 8:55 AM:

" Yes, there are cases of homosexual animals. There are also cases of cows growing a second head. These are abnormalities. Man does not fit with man, nor woman with woman. As far as the Constitution, yes, all men were created equal. That does not mean we condone all activites of man. Murder, for example is against the law...as is gay marriage in the majority of states. So, if you choose to live a gay lifestyle and try to get marries in one of these states, you're a criminal. "

Twisted Agenda wrote on Nov 17, 2006 8:14 AM:

" The Bible has a whole LOT of God Laws that are not even on the radar for today's human beings. Do you stone an adulterer? Do you not cut the hair on the side of your head? Do you rest on the Sabbath (by the way--is it Saturday or Sunday)? The Bible was written for the times with a lot of stories from other religious bodies of the time and earlier. Try reading Gilgamesh and see how much of the Bible comes from such a myth. The Bible was written by men (not women, by the way--that would have been a scandal) who were writing through the mirror of their times and culture. There are cultures where homosexuality is not spurned as much as the Judeo-Christian culture, it is accepted as part of a person's being. The Bible is Judeo-Christian with creation stories, legal briefs, myths, warrior heroes etc., just like many other creation stories, legal briefs, myths and warrior heroes. This is written by a person of faith but I'm not crippled by fundamentalism. "

Krusty Krab wrote on Nov 17, 2006 7:52 AM:

" The title of this article says it all. Similar story titles would (correctly) read: "Criminals, cops remain widely divided" or "Evil, good remain widely divided" or "Democrats, Republicans remain widely divided"... I could go on and on. "

silvermoonlitnight wrote on Nov 17, 2006 7:15 AM:

" I am a Christian. I believe that we should hate the sin but love the sinner. We shouldn't restrict them from thier normal everyday lives. I think that they should be aware of what God says about this issue. Those who don't know, tell them what God says about the subject, but don't force religion on to them. Here is what I believe love is. Love (v)- thinking the best and doing the best for others even to the point of self sacrifice. Think about what Jesus did when he died for us so long ago. That was love, true love. On the subject of marrige, that, I believe is a religious practice. If you think about it, where did marrige start? In the places of worship. If you guys want to comment on what I've written, I don't mind. I love to read other people's opinions and their thoughts. "

?? wrote on Nov 17, 2006 6:50 AM:

" What church teaches that the Bible is not the inspired word of God? "Christian" has become a generic term. I don't believe that you can be called a "Christian" if you don't believe that man wrote down God's words...thus the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God...which is stated in the Bible...how can you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to save us from our sin. Christ....Christian!! We cannot pick and choose what parts of the Bible we want to be true. It's all or nothing. There are several areas I would like to "delete" or brush off as "outdated" but I can't...that is where God's grace comes in...thank God!! "

To all wrote on Nov 17, 2006 6:23 AM:

" Hate the sin...not the sinner. This is a statement I have been taught from a very young age....by my church. We are ALL sinners and fall short of the glory of God, that is why he sent Jesus to die for our sins, so that we may have grace. I have many homosexual friends. Do I agree with their choices...no...do I hate them...NO!! I thank God everyday that I am not judged for my sins if I sincerely ask for forgiveness and try with all my heart not to repeat a sin. I cannot, however, change God's will to allow myself to "get away with" sinning. We all have to come to terms with the consequences of our actions....if we hate we will be in hell at the end just as quickly as those we condemn here. "

Its Gods law wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:25 PM:

" Its God's law that homosexuality is a sin, not mans. Man always wants to redefine God's law to make man feel better......Sorry, homosexuality cannot rewrite the law......God's law stands! "

Could a Christian Please Answer This?-Preferable One of the Un-Confused Ones? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 7:37 PM:

" So, I'm still not clear on this- according to Christian tachings are homosexuals supposed to forfeit their lives- or not? And please tell- HOW is this different from the Koran's "Kill the Infidel" passage that has American patriots' panties in a twist? "

to David Davis wrote on Nov 16, 2006 4:42 PM:

" seriously... come on. Yes.. gay people are only gay for a few minutes a week they are having sex. The rest of the week they are not gay. Are you serious? I guess the houses they buy together, lives they share, families they share, bank accounts they share, and so on.... are not an indication of anything. Oh well... that comment goes on the top of my list. I won't tell you what list it is... but I can tell you you don't want to be on it. "

to religion wrote on Nov 16, 2006 4:38 PM:

" Homosexuality also exist in penguines, panda's, elephants, birds... etc. Apparently they chose that behavior like humans. Give me a break. This sort of base level thinking is sad. You cannot control being gay... but you can control being a base level.. backwater Chrisitan. Remember... "love thy neighbor, as you would yourself". Oh.. I forgot.. Christians can now pick and choose what they want to believe out of the bible. "

huh wrote on Nov 16, 2006 4:34 PM:

" the legal rights that are given by the government to a married couple has nothing to do with the church. The church just blesses the wedding. The church does not dictate the law. Everyone.. get out your grade school history book. Seperation of Church and State... remember that? If we deny rights to a group of people, then we are discriminating, and that is unconstitutional. This really is not a fight with the church... it is a fight with the law. Let thme have a union.. let them have the same rights as everyone else. That is what made us America. "

Love is love is love wrote on Nov 16, 2006 4:13 PM:

" No Christianity is not the only religion. But there are some who have nothing to do with the hate that Christianity, Judism and Muslims have. And what abouts peole a man and women who can't procreate, should they not get married? The gays can't procreate argument does not hold water. And marriage is about religion. Since when. Since the conservatives (not all christians) say so. Marrige is a contract signed by to people to live there life. You have to go to a lawyer to get out of this contract. Not a minister. Why can't a gay man or women have this same right? or any of the other rights out there? Before you send me back about gays being sinner or i should except Jesus as my personal saviour. I am not christian but i am relgious. so don't try to convince me to see your way based on religion. "

to Religion? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 3:42 PM:

" Homosexuality exists in nature. One only has to look at the Bonobo chimps for proof of that. "

marriage? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:31 PM:

" Marriage is such an important thing to protect. It is also so much about religion. Not about cakes, dresses, gifts, money, guest lists, honeymoons, impressing others, getting drunk at the receptions, having a better wedding than your friends, flowers, etc.. etc.. etc. Yes.. we should protect marriage. It is so much about God. Give me a break. A gay person should have just as much right to be misserable in a marrriage. "

Religion? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:28 PM:

" Homosexuality is wrong, but not because of what religion teaches. Why pick on the Christians? Are they the ONLY religion that states this is wrong. Nature itself shows us that Homosexuatlity is wrong. How do I know this. Well...men can not procreate with men and women can not procreate with women. That's about as simple as it gets. "

ugh wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:27 PM:

" you new Christians scare me quite a bit. I am sure that all of you are also law abiding, sin free, Sunday going church members. Those of you who want the bible to be read literally... remember two things. A lie.. even a little on.. is a sin. So, you might as well be gay in your eyes. Also, God forgives all. You may want to condem everyone not like you... but God won't. That is enough for me. "

Please wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:21 PM:

" "The smartest people in world admit they know nothing at all". So many of you seem to "know" that homosexual behavior is controllable. Is it from experience, or are you just rehashing what someone told you at church. I am ashamed of my fellow "christians". We are not compassionate anymore. Everyone American should have the same rights. That is the law regardless of what you believe. "

Give me a break wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:15 PM:

" I did not choose to be gay. There was not a day where I thoght.. hmm.. what can I do in my life... oh yeah.. be gay. I am amazed at how many Christians know so much about homosexuality. Please find something else to talk about. It makes up less than one 10th of 1 percent of the bible, yet is a battle cry for conservative Christians. There is a lot more good stuff in that book. Check it out. Also, as far as marriage... the CONSTITUTION is not a page out of the bible. It is a set of laws.. and it says... "All me are created equal". You may not agree morally.. but that is what makes us the good old USA. "

to To To Enlightenment wrote on Nov 16, 2006 12:09 PM:

" Considering that a large majority of the country is Christian, yes, I'd say that Christians are largely responsible for the bans. The United States also has a proud history of bigotry and a fear of anything sexual that isn't missionary position, lights off, doors locked, and under the covers involving a church-married couple. While you might not go for the hanging of gay people, a large number of people would happily bring back and enforce the anti-gay sodomy laws and throw gay people in jail. "

to Enlightenment: wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:35 AM:

" Ok, so you believe homosexuality is a choice? Assuming you are male, could you ever make yourself attracted to another male? Has another male ever caught your eye the way a pretty girl has? Are your faith and religion the only things preventing you from considering a homosexual relationship? Could YOU choose to be gay? Apparently, Christian hero Ted Haggard CHOSE to have relations with that gay prostitute. LOL "

David Davis wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:32 AM:

" One can be homosexual and be right with God by not living the lifestyle, simple enough. A few decades ago, gays couldn't even be 'out', but now that there is more tolerance, the gay activist movement has pushed way too far in demanding equal marital status, adoption, etc., all in the name of acceptance. Well, gay marriage shouldn't happen. Live your life as best you can, but don't define yourself wholly as gay just because of something you may engage in (gay sex) a few minutes every week. The lifestyle and identifying oneself as "gay" is the downfall. "

to Washed in the Blood wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:31 AM:

" I attempted to reply to anotherNotMoph's comment but it was not printed. Needless to say, his comparison of animal rape to consensual adult relations is nothing short of stupid. "

David Davis wrote on Nov 16, 2006 11:30 AM:

" One can be homosexual and be right with God by not living the lifestyle, simple enough. A few decades ago, gays couldn't even be 'out', but now that there is more tolerance, the gay activist movement has pushed way too far in demanding equal marital status, adoption, etc., all in the name of acceptance. Well, gay marriage shouldn't happen. Live your life as best you can, but don't define yourself wholly as gay just because of something you may engage in (gay sex) a few minutes every week. The lifestyle and identifying oneself as "gay" is the downfall. PS. I'm gay "

To all wrote on Nov 16, 2006 10:55 AM:

" I think if we focused on the act and not the person maybe it would be clearier. The act of homosexuality is just as wrong as a habitual liar. These sins weigh the same in the eyes of God. There is redemeption. Just whole heartly ask for forgiveness and turn from those ways. Let's stop try to justify wrong. God don't make mistakes. We justify ours. "

To To Enlightenment wrote on Nov 16, 2006 10:44 AM:

" First of all, do you really think the 27-1 lead on state marriage protection amendments was won by ONLY Christians? Secondly, nobody is calling for homosexuals to be hung as you inferred. They are calling for the protect of traditional marriage, as history has shown works the best for families. "

TO:Can a Christian please verify? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 9:37 AM:

" Yes we do sin even if we only think evil things. The factor that seems to get lost on nonbelievers is the forgiveness God has. We are all sinners, I am a sinner, but I know that God has a plan for redemption: JESUS!! I know that when I sin I should wholeheartedly and sincerely ask for God's forgiveness. We should try not to sin, but that is imposible and God knew how are minds work, because he created us. If you have any more questions please contact a nondenominational church. Denominational churches are to clouded up by politics. "

Can a Christian Please Clarify? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 6:47 AM:

" Is it a sin to be attracted to- or fantasize about sex with someone of the same sex? Or must one actually have sex with someone of the same sex for them to burn in hell? Can someone in fact be gay if they die at age 90 after never having sex at all, but KNOW they are drawn to the same sex, and NOT the opposite sex? To that end- if someone dies at age 90 after never having sex at all- can they in fact even BE Heterosexual or Homosexual? Hmmm... These questions weigh heavy on my mind and I'd like to hear more wisdom from Christians on this, please... "

Step Down Off The High-Horse! wrote on Nov 16, 2006 6:38 AM:

" Why do many of we Christians take the Bible literally only when it suits us? If we were to take the Bible literally so many of our lives would be different… for starters, none of us would enjoy bacon for our breakfasts… our wives would be stoned to death if ever they had sex during their period, and every homosexual should be put to death per the commands in Leviticus. I believe God creates gays and places them in our lives in part to teach us true unconditional love and to test our ongoing progress. And by the looks of comments from a few fellow Christians in the group responding here, many of us are failing. I would wager that the majority of us who condemn gays do so as a result of the “stomach-turning factor”. If we could separate our perceptions of the sex-acts of gay people, there’s far less to demonize. I hope that when gay people consider me and weigh my worthiness that they are able to do it with their personal perceptions of my sex-life set aside. Fellow-Christians, step off the high-horse. Stop judging. And stop making excuses by calling the judging something more polished. "

You who addressed: “power trip", "so far.." and other "believers" on 11//15, wrote on Nov 16, 2006 2:26 AM:

" I am “so far…” You ask me not to paint myself as a Christian… Well in fact, you’re mistaken- I never claimed to be a Christian. In fact I never said I raked leaves at a Christian Church. True, I described many actions that I consider make me a decent, contributing member of the community in the piece I wrote here earlier, but Christians don’t have sole ownership of good deeds. You’re thinking like a privileged majority-member whose perspective is not only biased but also tarnished. Until you can be empathetic and think outside the box, and seek to know others’ hearts and have an interest in truly sharing and listening rather than in simply shoving your own ideas down others’ throats, you will continue to think as you do, valuing no opinion but your own, listening to no voice but your own. Maybe we should just change the name of this newspaper to “YOU”. "

Do You Get To Vote Twice? wrote on Nov 16, 2006 1:20 AM:

" Do any of us, regardless of our beliefs (or non-beliefs) have the right to impose our own beliefs (or non-beliefs) onto our neighbors? I say when in doubt- never deny a tax-paying citizen a basic fundamental RIGHT. Still, we must live side by side… No matter how you look at it- I’m for the system that allows us ALL our own choice. I like to think that’s what America is all about. CHOICE. This isn’t the United States of Atheist-Tom, the United States of Baptist-Dick, or the United States of Jewish-Harry, it’s the United States of AMERICA. WE ALL make up this great nation- and until one of us comes forward and produces the letter they’ve received from Washington that proclaims they have so proven themselves that they now have the right to TWO VOTES at election time, or show that W. has sent them a RED PHONE to install in their home for direct access from Pennsylvania Avenue, I’m gonna just keep assuming that all of our opinions hold the very same weight . Same Sex Couples EARN their equal place in society and WE need to stop denying them equality. It's what civilized nations do. "

more wrote on Nov 15, 2006 11:39 PM:

" 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. "

Seems more about love than hate wrote on Nov 15, 2006 11:39 PM:

" this is from biblegateway.com it is the scpture below...1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. "

Tink wrote on Nov 15, 2006 7:45 PM:

" Homosexuality is just wrong. I believe that one can have same gender attraction, but I think that is where God tests us. You know Satan cannot gain a body and cannot have the joy found in marriage so that is why he distorts marriage. He makes homosexuality appear normal. The New Testament affirms that God has given us commandments that are difficult to keep. It is in 1 Corinthians chapter verse 13. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: But God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Homosexuality is not a noun that describes a condition.. It is an adjective that describes feeling or behavior. Homosexual feelings are controllable. "

Enlightenment: wrote on Nov 15, 2006 6:51 PM:

" One chooses to be homosexual; one chooses where to live; one chooses where to work; one chooses to love; one chooses to hate; one chooses what vehicle to drive; one chooses what to eat; one chooses what to drink; one chooses to cheat on one's spouse; one chooses to steal; one chooses to be a hypocrite; one chooses to let Satan into one's life! AOTGGTG! Peace be with you! "

To...To... wrote on Nov 15, 2006 5:31 PM:

" My gay son was raised in the church pews...the churches and parishioners that now reject this fine young man as a sinner and something to be despised. I have learned a lot about being gay after he realized that he was not the same as all the straight men. I fully believe he was born gay and it was not an environmental or social event that precipitated gayness. He has a straight brother, both raised in the same environment. I reject those "Christians" who reject a gay person who is also made in God's image. The Bible was written by fallible humans with a cultural perspective different than ours. I know that God has made us all humans with many traits--in height, weight, color, sexes, intelligence and with love. I love both my sons and their respective partners in life, both male and female. I will work continually for equal treatment for gay partners so that they may have the same benefits that "married" people get! "

Veritas wrote on Nov 15, 2006 4:56 PM:

" I'm waiting to hear what Zeus has to say about this matter before I comment. "

to "power trip", "so far.." and other "believers" wrote on Nov 15, 2006 1:36 PM:

" Please do NOT paint yourself as a Christian when you say that you are "a proud supporter of gay marriage," or "raked leaves at your church??" The two ways of life are mutually EXCLUSIVE. Please, read the scriptures and become educated about God’s will for your life. This is a very simple issue - GLBT is wrong, not because I say it, but because GOD said it. That’s just the way it is. It is not the only sin, but it IS a sin, just like greed, hate, sloth, etc. - no greater or less. To be welcomed into God's kingdom, ALL sinners must turn away from that which separates them from God. So until the GLBT individuals choose to return to God’s will for their lives, they will remain separated from God, as will the greedy, hateful and so on. And, just as an FYI on a personal note, I am NOT a political conservative, but this issue is a deal breaker, because, God said so. "

Washed in the Blood wrote on Nov 15, 2006 1:14 PM:

" To anotherNotMoph: Interesting that no one has replied to your comment. Thank you. "

anotherNotMoph wrote on Nov 15, 2006 7:33 AM:

" Nobody can be pursuaded to be attracted to goats and sheep if that's not already born into them. Does one pick who he or she was made to love? No, no more than you or I can. Sure, there may be a beastophile culture, but being born an animal lover is not a lifestyle choice; accepting one's true self is accepting to live a genuine life and quit arguing with how God made them. Seems the only real threat presented by an inclusive society is to the special interests who might have to admit that they were in error--once again, just as in past civil rights issues. "

so far, just this week... wrote on Nov 15, 2006 6:31 AM:

" ...so far, just this season these are items I've crossed off my household's "to-do" list: raked leaves at our church, did what I hope will be a final grass-mowing at our local cemetery, winterized the kitchen and windows at the local VFW, read 4 stories to my nephew's 2nd grade class, volunteered 4 hours at the Peoria Rescue Mission- and will do it again the day before Thanksgiving, baked a bundt for a new neighbor, dropped a stack of magazines off at a nearby nursing-home, and was a pall-bearer for an elderly neighbor's funeral... In addition to these contributions to our cummunity, we also pay taxes- as much as everyone else. Continuing to deny my partner of 14 years, and I the right to legally marry because we are both male, is an unearned, undeserved slap in our faces. We contribute and take part at every opportunity and we should recieve the very same duties, responsibilities and benefits as every other contributing member of society- and there simply is no reasonable argument to the contrary. "

moph01 wrote on Nov 15, 2006 2:17 AM:

" Nobody can be pursuaded to be attracted to a particular gender if that's not already born into them. Does one pick who he or she was made to love? No, no more than you or I can. Sure, there may be a gay culture, but being born gay is not a lifestyle choice; accepting one's true self is accepting to live a genuine life and quit arguing with how God made them. Seems the only real threat presented by an inclusive society is to the special interests who might have to admit that they were in error--once again, just as in past civil rights issues. "

To "Radical Thinking" wrote on Nov 15, 2006 12:15 AM:

" "We can reserve the word "marriage" to that festival in the church where the length of the marriage is in inverse proportion to the cost of the wedding." ... a little cynical, eh? It made me laugh, anyway. "

FYI wrote on Nov 14, 2006 11:18 PM:

" The fire and brimstone portions of the Bible are clear-cut that if you don't follow ALL of God's laws, you'll burn. There is no middle ground/degrees of sin that are tolerated; cursing his name carries the same eternal death penalty as molesting/any sex out of 'holy' marriage(defined merely as 'adultery'). In response to another comment, did you not catch that this article IS about homos(just don't feel like typing it out every time; not intended to insult) wanting state and organized religious recognition for their immoral, sinful and perverse 'unions'. Sure, I can accept them being perverts(it's their american right), but when they want to proclaim to be 'saved' believers, sorry it doesn't work that way if you don't stop sinning. It is strange how they are concentrating on Christian churches, and aren't lining up to Jewish temples(snip snip!!!). Pantagraph forums really need emoticons. "

IT'S BS wrote on Nov 14, 2006 10:52 PM:

" Why is it when Christians and homosexuals get together its all about "EDUCATING" the Christians and "CREATING AWARENESS" so the Christians "CAN UNDERSTAND?" When do the Christians get to do the educating and the homosexuals "LEARN TO ACCEPT?" Oh wait...when that happens, the Christians are "HATEFUL" and "DISCRIMINATING." I also love how everyone talks about the "anti-gay marriage" people are in trouble because ONE STATE shot down the gay marriage ban. As the article says "it's 27-1." We know you aren't stopping.....but the flip side of that is......we aren't either. "

Radical Thinking wrote on Nov 14, 2006 10:33 PM:

" I think that the whole concept of "marriage" in general needs a makeover. First, let's make the legal contract of partnership the document that gives the rights of what is now called "marriage" to those who freely enter into that partnership, be they heterosexual or homosexual. This would be the same as what is called a "marriage" license now. It would be a legally binding license given by the state to two people entering into the contract. We can reserve the word "marriage" to that festival in the church where the length of the marriage is in inverse proportion to the cost of the wedding. "Marriage" will fall under the perview of religion but everyone will receive the benefits of partnership from the partnership license issued by the governing body. Gays should be able to have this right and it should be applied to everyone. "

Power trip wrote on Nov 14, 2006 10:03 PM:

" Thank goodness for a change in government. Hopefully the radical Christian right will get their power trip handed back to them in the trash bag it came in......Why is it so important for some Christians to be on such a crusade- NOT to "save" something they can already freely have, but to PREVENT others from happiness and a fulfilling life? Are they that afraid of something different??? FEAR is THE ultimate evil in our world, and fear is the exact response many Christians have when the subject of GLBT people is brought up; fear that somehow they will be "contaminated" by some sort of plague, and that learning about the GLBT community will somehow "contaminate" their children as well. You may not have to accept their orientation on an emotional level and a religious one, but unless you want to bring a whole new level of socialism to this country you will have to learn to deal with them in both your social life and in business without any discrimination based on their sexual orientation status. Yes, I am myself a Christian (UCC), I am straight, married with children; and a proud supporter of gay marriage. "

To Enlightenment: wrote on Nov 14, 2006 9:47 PM:

" What an inappropriate name! You sound like someone straight out of the Salem witch trials! "

Enlightenment: wrote on Nov 14, 2006 9:06 PM:

" Have you read the Bible? Do you know what it "says" about homosexuality? By following God's laws: one is showing love for God and one's neighbor. Homosexuality is an abomination: filthy act, a perversion; against what is natural. A man's p**** was not made to be inserted into another man's r*****. God punished many for not following his laws: King David, Adam, Eve, etc. By following God's commandments I am loving my neighbor. I love everyone but I do not like Satan's devious plans and sinful acts which are abominations; there is a difference. I will not hurl insults, throw punches, curse, etc. when I see a homosexual couple, etc. but according to my beliefs it is an abomination to live a homosexual lifestyle; the same as cheating on my spouse or being a hypocrite: Ted Haggard. I do not condone Catholic priests molesting boys and I do not condone any other act which compromises God's laws; I am not perfect but I am only a man who is trying my best to "sow good seed!" AOTGGTG! Peace be with you! "

To Where's Bluehair? wrote on Nov 14, 2006 6:46 PM:

" I heard she had a heart attack when the Democrats retook the house. "

to FYI wrote on Nov 14, 2006 5:08 PM:

" I'm sorry that you feel that way. Try to understand that Christianity is about a RELATIONSHIP with God and not a religion. Yes there are many churches that house immoral people, but not all of them are like that. Even I don't understand how someone can stand behind a pulpit and preach to the flock when they themselves live in direct violation of whats clearly written in the bible. "

Where's Bluehair? wrote on Nov 14, 2006 3:50 PM:

" Oh where, oh where has Bluehair gone? Lost your soap box that you seem to like so much? "

God is Love wrote on Nov 14, 2006 2:51 PM:

" God created each and everyone of us, just the way we are. Being gay or lesbian does not make you a pervert or child molester. God loves us all and non of us have the right to make judgements on others. And it is NOT a lifestyle you, it is simply the way you are. If you don't understand it, don't judge it. I am a stariagt female and I am married. But I have to say, the sactity of marriage was breeched a long time ago by straight people that cannot make a lifetime committment. "

Meh wrote on Nov 14, 2006 2:18 PM:

" What's the sanctity of marriage? Its a religious concept. My wife and I are married because we want to be and are legally allowed to be, not because some church and some god "blessed it." Gay people are only asking to be legally married. They're not out to force your church or your god to "bless" their union. And homosexuals are not out to "convert" your children. You cannot make someone gay. I was born a man who likes women. Its just the way I am. Likewise, a gay person is born liking members of the same sex. Did Rev. Ted Haggard choose to be attracted to men? And frankly, I don't see a problem with being gay. What consenting adults do in their private lives is their own business, not yours, not mine. "

Jennifer wrote on Nov 14, 2006 2:04 PM:

" How weak is your marriage when you say we cannot allow homosexuals to marry because suddenly marriage will not mean as much and it will defy the sanctity of marriage. It seems to me heterosexuals have done a very good job of "defiling the sanctity of marriage." My marriage is strong enough to withstand gays being married, why isn't yours? "

Jennifer wrote on Nov 14, 2006 1:59 PM:

" Homosexuals and churches remain divided because homosexuals aren't in to seducing little boys. "

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