Pantagraph.com | News | Deputy shoots, kills man in altercation

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

to Krusty Krab from Tazer wrote on May 14, 2007 10:55 AM:

" Dont worry I did not waste any of your tax money I was highly educated at a private school. I really am not worried about my grammer when I am writing on a message board and not writing my Thesis, besides when people are reading these things they should be more worried about the victims and not grammer. Have a heart! "

sadstory wrote on May 14, 2007 4:38 AM:

" people who have mental health problems are not in their right mind so for someone to say "hes 23 a big boy" well there are people who are 83 and have suffered all of their lives and still are not in their right minds. it is not easy and unless you have a family member or are close to someone, or you are someone suffering, you just dont see how painful it is. this was a tragic accident and i believe things could have been done to avoid this on both sides. the cops need more training and more options, such as tazers and what not. and our mental health system needs help. i also think that his family must have had some signs things were escilating and they didnt push it as far as they should have. they could have delt with that before things got this out of hand. if he had been more enforced to stay on meds and follow up maybe this could have been avoided. but with nothing changing and places like zeller closing what are we to do? "

YadaYada wrote on May 13, 2007 10:48 AM:

" Only one thing stands between chaos and social order, and that is law enforcement. Stop blaming the cops for everything that goes wrong in this world, when the police are merely out there protecting us. This man's condition was well known to his family and to doctors; this man's behavior was predictable, absent his medication, therefore family members are surely more responsible for this man's death than the police. I have an uncle with a son (in his late 30s) like this dead young man. Beginning in the early 80s, the courts have made it extremely more difficult to institutionalize (deprive freedom to) persons like this, so there are more and more homeless persons roaming around and more stories with this same, sad outcome. "

Krusty Krab wrote on May 11, 2007 11:16 PM:

" TAZER wrote on May 11, 2007 2:23 PM: " Why did they not have tazers in their hand why did all of our tax money go buy them and they dont even use them. Now our tax money is going to go to make resitution to the family, which in my opinion they are intitled to " WHY DID YOU WASTE MY TAX MONEY BY NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE TEACHER IN YOUR ENGLISH CLASS? "

TAZER wrote on May 11, 2007 2:23 PM:

" Why did they not have tazers in their hand why did all of our tax money go buy them and they dont even use them. Now our tax money is going to go to make resitution to the family, which in my opinion they are intitled to "

LA Co Deputy wrote on May 10, 2007 9:51 PM:

" I am sorry for the victim/family and Deputy. The last thing that Deputy wanted to do/thought he would have to do that day was to take a life. It will haunt him for many years, lying in bed wishing things would have turned out differently. I am amazed at some of the posts and cop bashing. If you think you can do a better job, then join. My job description does not say I have to "take a hit". I am legally allowed to defend myself. We do not join up to legally kill people. We are taught to stop the threat. I received over 800hrs. of training and cannot train for every incident that I will encounter in my career. A distance of 10ft. can be closed in 1sec. The Deputy made a split-second descision I am sure most people would have made using the tools at their disposal. We are taught not to meet the level of threat head on, but to be a step above. The man ASKED what response his actions would bring. Because he didn't say "I am going to stab you", does not mean he wouldn't. "

:-0 wrote on May 9, 2007 1:35 PM:

" A cop with a trigger finger, how original. "

Hilde1951 wrote on May 8, 2007 5:15 PM:

" How does anyone really know what happened unless you were standing next to the officer or the man who was shot and killed. You have to rely on the witness stories and the facts. "

you do it then wrote on May 8, 2007 5:07 PM:

" I have an idea for all of you on here that can say what is right/ wrong. Since you are all so smart and have time to talk about it/ judge the situation then get off your a#*,go to the State Police Training Institute for 3-6 months, be a cop yourself! Since you all know what to do or not to do and are experts then you can all be perfect and nothing will ever go wrong! Maybe police should start using "time outs" or Naughty spots", that way no one gets hurt! Get a clue, when you need a cop, you think that theybetter do their job/bust their hind for you, your family/property, but until then you feel the need critize them. You get out there, you do their job, you be perfect and then speak from experience instead of your own judgements. Yes someone got shot, maybe the officer should have waited until the guy jabbed him in the throat, oh wait maybe he should have called a counselor for the guy so that next time the guy will take his family with him and then takes own life. "

don,t call wrote on May 7, 2007 6:50 AM:

" Stop calling the Police! Do not ever call the police, It will only do more harm. Call your lawyer first they will give you better advice. "

Krusty Krab wrote on May 6, 2007 7:02 PM:

" To: Duh wrote on May 03, 2007 5:17 PM: "Why is it so stupid to get out of your car and walk toward a cop car to ask a question?" BECAUSE A TRAFFIC STOP IS NOT THE CUSTOMER SERVICE COUNTER AT "THE VON MAUR." YOU WERE STOPPED BECAUSE YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG. HE DIDN'T STOP YOU TO TELL YOU ABOUT THE "SPECIAL VALUE ITEM OF THE DAY." HE DOESN'T KNOW, OR CARE, "WHO YOU ARE." YOU ARE A TRAFFIC VIOLATOR, AND POSSIBLY, A DEADLY THREAT. NUMEROUS OFFICERS HAVE BEEN KILLED AT THE VERY MOMENT WHEN THE VIOLATOR GETS OUT AND COMES BACK TOWARD THE PATROL CAR. THAT INCLUDES MURDERERS FROM EVERY RACE, SEX, AND AGE GROUP FROM 15 TO 80. GET IT NOW? "

To: Duh wrote on May 3, 2007 5:17 PM:

" Why is it so stupid to get out of your car and walk toward a cop car to ask a question? I certainly never learned that in driver's ed and how are law-abiding people supposed to know it is such a crime? Especially those of us who don't watch tv. I would have thought it would be okay to call the police if my child was endangering him/herself, too...but...after reading this story, I would certainly think twice about that action, too. "

Duh wrote on May 3, 2007 4:47 PM:

" On a side note - walking toward a cop car after being stopped is just stupid *** I mean really, really stupid *** No matter out-of-shape, fat, ugly, malnurished, young, or honest-looking you may be. "

Police wrote on May 3, 2007 12:51 PM:

" Some days it seems like you're d***ed if you do and d***ed if you don't expect the police to be there to help out in an emergency. I think I will settle for letting the police stop me if I speed and not expect them to help me out in altercations with loved ones. AND...when stopped by a policeman for speeding...I will NEVER EVER get out of the car to go back to their car to ask a question. THAT is apparently a forbidden activity in the State of Illinois and I learned that the hard way when a police officer reached for his gun and ORDERED me back to my car. Yes, sir, sorry, sir....it's just me...the old lady pacifist wanting to ask a question....and erroneously thinking policemen are there to answer questions.... "

SO SAD wrote on May 3, 2007 11:15 AM:

" The comments about what would you do if someone would lung at you with a knife should think about it. It does not matter what we would have done because most of us have not gone through the training a cop has they have learned what to do in an instance as this and if they reacted wrong then they need to be punished. The man was 10 ft. away from the cop with a knife even if he did lundge at the cop it does not call for shooting him 3 times, now there are many families that are in pain because of a quick decision that cost someone their life. "

Hey sick of people wrote on May 3, 2007 7:46 AM:

" Your kidds not dead, and is he a cop or would you stand up for the garbage just the same? "

hey "to the jist of it"... wrote on May 3, 2007 3:14 AM:

" ... you did'nt get the jist of it (?). I've had the pleasure of knowing some of the greatest officers ever to serve. The point I brought up actually surfaced through a nationally syndicated radio talk show host. Wether this being the result of orders from the top, recruitment or training in this "brave new world", sorry to say, this "is" becoming more the public perception. I would'nt hazard to "guess" what my or may not have taken place in regards to this article. But, a sinister plot or not to bring animosity amongst citizenry and fellow citizen law enforcement through the constant issuance of penalty for every minute infraction is having a negative effect. At least that's the jist of it. But I'm no expert. "

Im sick of people... wrote on May 2, 2007 9:16 PM:

" criticizing the police. Im tired of people who get mad at cops after a person pulls a weapon on them and then the police return fire. They are justified in there actions. Police put there lives on the line everyday and all they get is more criticism. You people are un greatfull "

To the jist of it wrote on May 2, 2007 5:59 PM:

" If you are that intimidated by the police, what are you doing wrong in the first place? It's easy to criticize the police and accuse them of being these over zealous authoritative figues until YOU need THEM for assistance. If you call the police for help, they will come and do whatever is necessary to keep everybody (including yourself) safe and resolve the conflict. The outcome of this horrible tradgedy that happened Monday shouldn't be laid entirely on either party (the police or the man that was shot). "

To: Jist wrote on May 2, 2007 4:05 PM:

" Yup, that is exactly how I feel! Say you reach into you your front inside coat pocket to grab your wallet. Bang! - your dead "

the jist of it wrote on May 2, 2007 12:14 PM:

" Driving along, minding your own, doing nothing wrong. A police car turns in behind you. Reaction? Do you think "wow, I now feel really safe" or "out of the now hundreds of rules and regulations, this officer is looking for a reason to do damage to my pocketbook, (and flex a bit of authority while at it). Recap: "Security"? or "Police State". "

Sad wrote on May 2, 2007 10:17 AM:

" This story is just sad and I hope the Pantagraph keeps us posted on what happens with this police officer. He may be the greatest guy in the world, but when family members call the police for help with SUICIDAL loved one, I doubt they expect the police to do the killing. "

To: Good Job Officer wrote on May 2, 2007 10:08 AM:

" You would be right, except for one thing: the VICTIM did not lunge at the Police Officer. He merely took a step forward, knife at his side (the only time it wasn't at his side was when he held it up to his own throat), after making sure he wouldn't get shot by asking police if he would get shot if he took a step forward. Then, WITHOUT warning, the cop shot him three times in the chest. This could have been avoided, especially since the family was fully cooperative with police, as they called them for help, and explained the entire situation. So they knew that the guy was not homicidal, he was suicidal. Even knowing all this, the cop shot him anyway. It is people like you, and cops like that, that should be banned from anything requiring you to make important decisions, because chances are you will choose the most fatal decision every single time. "

Save a life & Don't call the police wrote on May 1, 2007 10:45 PM:

" Wait until the dust settles...then call the police to investigate after the fact. Don't call in the guns on a loved one unless you are willing to accept the risk of an officer shooting his gun and killing the loved one or you. I'm sorry...I understand officers are trained to shoot to kill...fine. I won't call one of them to come protect me against a loved one. I may call one to protect me against a stranger who I don't care about...or....maybe my dead-beat son-in-law who I don't really like anyway. "

to Quit Watching TV wrote on May 1, 2007 8:38 PM:

" So only police officers- and only those officers who were on the scene- have any right to criticize? We as civilians must accept whatever the police tell us, for they know best? Nonsense. I have no idea whether the cop was right or not in shooting, but that doesn't mean I have to accept whatever police (or witnesses) say. "

Ignorance wrote on May 1, 2007 7:46 PM:

" I have a few questions/comments: Does the Marshall Co. Sheriff's Office even have tazers? Many departments do not Just because BPD & NPD have them doesn't mean other departments have them. They are expensive and most sheriff's department budgets aren't that big. Secondly, tazers are sporadically effective. They are not the "cure all" to end every armed situation and shouldn't be thought of as such. Pepper spray does not affect most people off their medications, and a small portion of the population at large do not feel the effects. Third, the police DO NOT shoot weapons out of hands, nor do they shoot body parts to get someone to drop a knife or otherwise maim someone. I challenge anyone to try this. Go run 5 miles right before making the shot, then maybe your heart rate will be close. As stated before, when an officer fires his/her weapon, the purpose is to stop a threat. As for the father complaining about three whole shots: If, in the officers opinion it took three shots, then so be it. A lot of times it takes more than three... "

Quit Watching TV wrote on May 1, 2007 6:13 PM:

" This is reality folks. What you see on TV is called a DRAMA for a reason. IT"S NOT REAL. No matter how hard they try, they can't make it real because life has no script. If you are not a trained police officer, don't try to tell them how to do their job. If you are a trained police officer, but weren't there, then you can't really make a sound judgement either. Everyone morn the loss of a human life and the pain the family and yes, the officer, is going through. "

To the cops wrote on May 1, 2007 4:21 PM:

" This is so not cool, to brag about doing your job and going home. A boy is dead, and you guys think your cool. What a bunch of loooosers. "

Good job officer wrote on May 1, 2007 3:03 PM:

" You did what you needed to do to come home safely. The fault here is ENTIRELY on the CRIMINAL who decided to brandish a knife and lunge at you. Feel sorry for the family but not for the CRIMINAL who brought this on himself. "

To the Arm Chair quarterbacks wrote on May 1, 2007 3:00 PM:

" If you all have a problem with the police and think you can do better then put your application in and apply. I'm sure then you will have a better understanding of what police work is like. "

What to do/not to do wrote on May 1, 2007 12:55 PM:

" I don't know what the police should have done because I don't watch enough tv. I KNOW what FAMILIES in Central IL apparently SHOULD NOT do if they want HELP (as opposed to so-called "assisted suicide") for their loved ones...and that is call the police! I do not believe I would ever call the police and expect real assistance for a mental health issue. I guess they help catch speeders and people who drive without seat belts...but I'm not sure how effective they are with avoidance of crime or trouble. Perhaps their real effectiveness is investigating after the fact and submitting forms for the lawyers to use. "

Please... wrote on May 1, 2007 12:41 PM:

" Obviously most of you don't live around Lacon. It is a small county with an even smaller budget. The deputies there are underpaid and underequipped. Even their bulletproof vests have long past the expiration date stated on each one. They don't have Tazers, rubber bullets, and the like. I have known Deputy Strawn for several years. There is not a more sincere, kind-hearted man on the planet. I am sorry for the family. It is hard to lose a loved one. But, laying the blame on Deputy Strawn is not fair. He's just an ordinary guy, working a thankless job in a small town. Please have sympathies for everyone involved. I assure you the anguish Deputy Strawn is experiencing is unspeakable. "

to Paladin wrote on May 1, 2007 12:22 PM:

" what are you smokin', man? you're sounding pretty wacked! take a break. chill. "

I wonder wrote on May 1, 2007 11:52 AM:

" Do these small-time cops have cameras in their dash like the rest of civilization? "

To: Paladin wrote on May 1, 2007 11:51 AM:

" My Ouija Board seems to be a dud.....any advice? "

Paladin wrote on May 1, 2007 11:07 AM:

" ...although I appreciate your obvious concern, no one, in fact, had to die in order for me to know what I am talking about. In fact, live teachers are generally preferable to dead ones (both in the military, and in law enforcement training areas), unless you are studying forensics, and have a really dependable ouija board... "

To: Suicide by Cop wrote on May 1, 2007 11:04 AM:

" The victim hardly forced the cop's trigger finger to shoot. These cops were not "forced to carry out a suicide pact". The cop didn't have to shoot to kill. I bet the family will regret for the rest of their lives their choice to call the police for help. Some help the cops were, now this guy's family will have to live the rest of their lives knowing they phoned in their son's murder! "

Lawsuit wrote on May 1, 2007 10:57 AM:

" This was senseless and cruel. If those country cops don't have any skills to deal with someone who is mentally ill, then they shouldn't show up at the scene. That situation could have been diffused in other ways. I hope lil' ol' Marshall County has some insurance to pay the judgment in the lawsuit. "

Granddaughter of an officer... wrote on May 1, 2007 10:44 AM:

" I feel bad for the family that lost this young man... However~ I would want my gpa to do whatever he needed to do to insure his safety and come home at the end of his shift. This man should have been helped way before it came to tryin to kill himself! "

TAZER wrote on May 1, 2007 10:32 AM:

" A TAZER gun would have prevented all of this. In-car video may have taken all the he said, she said out of the equasion, they better buy some!!!....too late!!! "

TO:Paladin wrote on May 1, 2007 10:23 AM:

" Who died and left you the expert? Give it a rest. "

Paladin wrote on May 1, 2007 9:39 AM:

" Pepper spray: go into your back yard, and shoot your best wasp-killer at a nest, from 20 feet (some sprays can go that far, many can't). Spray for one count of "one-one-thousand". Did you hit the nest? The bad guy has now closed the distance, and is on you. Batons: PR-24s are good, but no one carries them anymore. They get in the way, getting into and out of your car, and are bigger than collapsible batons, and anyone who saw the Rodney King video knows they are unpopular. No batons are intended for use as lethal force. TASERs work, sometimes. Sometimes, they don't. Net shooters won't stop someone from hurting himself, and pepperball launchers aren't well tested. Mano a mano, with a guy with a knife? No... "

Paladin wrote on May 1, 2007 9:01 AM:

" ...why be within 21 feet, unholstered? I don't know, possibly to protect the family, in case the Emotionally Disturbed subject does something "unbalanced"? Vests made of kevlar are basically nets. A thin, pointed object can pass through them (easily, with the weight of a body in motion behind it). Not all knives qualify, but even a vest with a trauma plate does not cover all your quick-bleedout arteries. You'd have to be in medieval platemail. No more chasing bad guys. "

sad.. wrote on May 1, 2007 8:23 AM:

" He was shot 3 times, come on now.. that was un called for. Sorry but not siding with the cops, maybe one shot, but 3. Sorry for the family who needed help, not a family memeber killed.. "

what If wrote on May 1, 2007 8:21 AM:

" What If the boy was, let's say ten years old? Do we still shoot to kill ? Or do we try to take the knife out of his hand? Ok, to others this is why we do not call the police, get it? "

Ken wrote on May 1, 2007 8:00 AM:

" I was not at the scene, so I don't know what happened, but it sounds like if the family members were able to get him too pull over he might have been having second thought's. I understand that thier were two police officer at the scene and also family member's. I know that it is not as eazy as I'm going to make it sound, but with that many people around him and being in the rural country they could stay thier distance and be out of harm's way. If he really wanted to kill him self he could have done so. I thought that the taser gun was to disable someone long enough to bring them under control. I also thought that maybe police force could have some kind of net that could be throwed over someone making it hard for them to hurt anyone until they were under control. I thought that if he was ten foot away, and the officer could have backed up and stayed safe, and I don't know why he had to be shot three time's in the chest, why not in the leg or arm. Prayer for all. "

Pink Floyd wrote on May 1, 2007 7:47 AM:

" Where was their pepper spray and nightsticks? Would have made more sense to use them and I think some sprays reach out quite a ways.Isn't it in some countries the police don't carry guns but clubs? Far to many small town.county deputy Barneys around. Unfortunately they aren't given only one bullet an don't have to keep it in their shirt pocket. "

suicide by cop wrote on May 1, 2007 7:38 AM:

" he made the cops do it in front of his parents and now the Marshall County Sheriff's deputies will need counseling for it. And the family will settle out of court for it as well. Not fair to our law enforcement officers to have to carry out suicide pacts for these guys and then get sued for it as well. "

to: wrote on May 1, 2007 7:35 AM:

" shoot the knife out of his hand? you have seen to many movies. A shot like that could happen of course but, it would not be a reactionary shot. The officer would need a stationary target and at least 5 minutes to aim. As far as giving the officers knives so "it would be even" is concerned, people need to realize Police Officers are not prize fighters. while it is true they are responsible for keeping public order, even if that meens using force, they are trained to have at least 2 officers present when time and cicumstances allow. All that being said, I would happen to agree with the next poster. I wasn't there (and neither were any of you), this officer had to make a split second decision. However, it seems to me a "tazer" or other type of less-than-leathal type of weapon would have been a better choice. "

Krusty Krab wrote on May 1, 2007 6:29 AM:

" The majority of the posts here clearly show that people watch too much tv and don't know anything about firearms, combat with firearms, or wound ballistics. "Wel, yu seee hear, that cop shuld have done XXX. I knoww cuz I wach teevee and thats wat they wuld hav dun on Law and Order S.U.V., uhh, i mean S.V.U..." "

21 foot wrote on May 1, 2007 6:07 AM:

" the 21 rule is for a holstered weapon. what is it for already drawn? And why be within 21 feet unholstered so there is no chance to difuse the situation without firing your weapon? "

What? wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:35 PM:

" It ceases to amaze me with the amount of idiots who post on here! Yeah, shoot anything out of someone's hand....yeah right! What are you watching (Cartoon Network)? Yes, I have heard the 21 foot rule. It's true. Try it at home, you will be amazed. You cannot draw a firearm out. Tasers, well if and when they work, yes they might have merit if there are atleast three other officers, with their GUNS out, just in case. Yes, police shoot to STOP the threat, NOT to kill, though when you shoot at the chest, there are numerous vital organs, thus you usually do not live. Sounds like the Ofc. did well and went home. "

Get a Clue wrote on Apr 30, 2007 9:01 PM:

" If you've been told to put the knife down, then have the stupidity to make a move towards any police officer while holding that knife in your hand, common sense says you should expect to be shot, at least two to three shots, center-mass. I'm sorry for the loss of a knife wielding suspect's family, but inspite of what some may think, the police officer has a right to defend his own life, and an OBLIGATION to defend the lives of others. Once again, many do not like to place the actual responsibility where it actually belongs. It belonged in the hands of the young man with the knife. It truly is that simple. "

agree wrote on Apr 30, 2007 8:53 PM:

" I have to agree with the police on this one. Quoting one post, the man was a 23 year old adult not taking his medicine. That is a choice. He was brandishing a lethal weapon, agian his choice. Lunged at the officer, again a choice. It was obvious that the family was scared to death of this man, otherwise they could have stopped him and then this whole situation could have been avoided. "

To: To ** wrote on Apr 30, 2007 8:28 PM:

" THANKS! That was totally the problem and I was able to post after I removed the dashes from between words or used them without spaces. "

Sorry for all involved wrote on Apr 30, 2007 8:24 PM:

" To "I'm just glad" post at 3:11 p.m. today: The Pantagraph allows us the right to post our opinions on events happening in our world and interact with other readers. You sound annoyed with this so why do you read them? Why insult the rest of us with your arrogant post? Regarding the shooting death of this mentally ill man; none of the other posters pretended to have witnessed this tragedy. Also, many are just stating their opinion (the whole point of the message board!) and feelings regarding this incident. There is a big difference between this and demeaning the police or deceased man and his family as well as insisting "what should have been done." "

cant wait wrote on Apr 30, 2007 8:01 PM:

" till judgement day when they will answer for all there wrong doings lies and everything.... glory be to god ...for there sad and sorry ways!! "

So what if?... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 7:35 PM:

" What if the officer was killed by the knife? Then all of you would be wondering why the police officer didn't shoot him before he was stabbed to death. As it was previously said, cops cant read minds. All readers need to understand why the officer did what he did, and not many of you do. "

I know wrote on Apr 30, 2007 6:09 PM:

" To avoid this happening again, let's do away with all police officers. That way when someone "crying for help" comes looking for you, your friend, or family member, they won't be stopped like this, and you won't have to sit secure at your computer sending comments to the Pantagraph. "

personal responsiblity wrote on Apr 30, 2007 5:13 PM:

" With all the talk about tasers, and the woulda, coulda, shoulda, what is being loss is personal responsibility. The police are not psychic. They cannot assume that a stranger is not going to use the weapon they are holding. If someone brandishes a weapon you should assume that they are going to use it. If they point a gun at you or charge at you with a knife, it is too late, you are dead. So place the responsibility for the death on the proper person, the dead guy. His death was his own fault. He caused it. And the next time anyone has a weapon and the police are there, use common sense and put it down, or you will get shot. "

in harms way wrote on Apr 30, 2007 4:35 PM:

" Police officer have to beleve they are in harms way when they take the job. Deadly force is not the only type of force. By the way did you notice VT shotting it took a will to get into the building, he did not even run back with the bolt cuters. "

vest stop knives wrote on Apr 30, 2007 4:28 PM:

" Specially-designed vests which protect against bladed weapons and sharp objects are often used in vests for prison guards and other law enforcement officers. Some materials like Dyneema offer considerable protection against bladed weapons and slash attacks. "

Bang Bang wrote on Apr 30, 2007 4:22 PM:

" the tazer, night stick, or just stay out of reach so he can not stab someone. i though that the tazer was suppose to stop the use of guns and killing people by police. i must have mis understood!! bang bang your dead, and the dead can not talk. "

LEO wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:55 PM:

" Did any of the cops have a Taser? If so, one could have used it while other officer covered him w/ lethal force. Let me guess, Marshall Co. is full of Taser haters who wouldn't approve it for the police. So to all of you Tasers haters, this is what happens. "

Prayers wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:48 PM:

" I will keep his family members in my prayers. Regardless of how it happened they have suffered a loss of a loved one. "

In the Know wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:43 PM:

" The Kevlar vests worn by the police do NOT offer protection against knives. The reason for the Rule of 21 is based on experiences over the past three decades. For a while, more police officers were killed with knives than with bullets. That's why the training has been changed to consider a person with a knife in close proximity more dangerous than a person with a gun. Don't post unless you know what you're talking about! And shooting the gun out of a hand, or shooting in a leg??? You watch too much TV. "

A knife... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:30 PM:

" will go through a vest. It's not our job to take a hit, if it is then I'm waaay underpaid. And you shoot to stop the threat, not to kill. "

Police wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:29 PM:

" I called the police once because my son pushed me out of his way and then left while he was still angry. I was afraid he would hurt himself in the state he was in. The came back much calmer, but when he did, the police arrested him at my home. Thank God he wasn't shot, but only got a domestic violence charge that cost me several thousand dollars. Even though I wanted them to just drop the charges, they refused. Seems once the police get involved there is going to be a charge of some sort. Better than a death. I don't think I will ever call the police again on a family member. "

Sad Sad Sad wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:23 PM:

" This is one of the saddest stories I have read in the Pantagraph yet this week....it is right up there with old people who drive into kids. Scary to think your kids would be safer if you took the risk of hurting themselves with a knife than if you talk them off the road but asked for the police to help. "

Calling the police wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:20 PM:

" Well...my guess is that family will never call the police again if they have a loved one who is suicidal. Calling the police seems to be like playing Russian roulette since the police do have the loaded weapons. I see the Pantagraph updated this story and took out the references to grandpa who originally was reported to have been on the scene. What's up with that? "

To: ** wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:18 PM:

" I have found that if I try to put hypens...leaving any spaces-i.e. you can put them between words with no spaces...I get the same error message about payloads. "

I agree with ummmm wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:13 PM:

" Couldnt they have used a tazor?! "

I'm just glad wrote on Apr 30, 2007 3:11 PM:

" ... all these commenters were there and can scrutinize the situation for us. Think how difficult it would be if we didn't have so many people who actually witnessed it to tell us what was done and what should have been done. Once again, Pantagraph commenters save the day! "

Everyone wrote on Apr 30, 2007 2:27 PM:

" always has something negative to say about the police. I'm sure that both of the officers are pretty shook up about taking someone's life. Let's try to think of them too. Oh..and of course the family is going to say that he didn't lunge. It's a sad scenario all around for everybody involved. "

Paladin wrote on Apr 30, 2007 2:21 PM:

" ...how many vests protect your carotid, femoral, and brachial / radial arteries? Oh, yeah, that would be, none of them... "

Illya wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:59 PM:

" I've got a boring idea. Why don't we wait until the investigation is completed before we start judging who was right and who was wrong. I doubt that any posters on here were at the scene. In the meantime, I will pray for the victim and his family and for the officer and his family. "

Sorry for all involved wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:57 PM:

" I agree with the police on this one. In a volatile, life threatening situation like this one, lethal force is justified. Wounding the attacker is not an option whether he had a knife, gun, or another weapon. I feel so sorry for the family of the deceased man because they not only lost a loved one; they had to witness his death. Hopefully this incident will send a bigger message not to let mental illness go unchecked in our families, friends and communities. I hope the police officers are able to find peace in these next days as well as the family who lost their son/grandson. "

Just sad wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:51 PM:

" Everyone missing the point here. Two Cops one knife and the family standing there. That is as stupid as it gets. The cop had a vest on I bet. Part of the job is taking the hit. The cop probably soiled his uniform and over reacted, Its just sad it ended in a death. "

Umm... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:47 PM:

" Let's see. On meds, but not taking them. Held a weapon...I am gonna have to side with the police on this one. Didn't they think the VT shooter was suicidal and not homicidal? Look how that turned out. Should have been taking his meds. At 23, he is a big boy and he chose not to do what was needed to keep his mental health in order. Sorry, not feeling sorry for you guys like the bleeding hearts on here. Of course the family is going to dispute it. They are seeing the $$ from a future lawsuit. "

Paladin wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:42 PM:

" ..."Mental Health Officer" is a designation for Intermediate law enforcement officers. Not everyone gets the class, even in States with Police Academies that provide 688 hours of instruction, versus 480 in Illinois. You want everyone to take the class? Expect higher taxes... If you want more "less-lethal" response, you'd better think about the tactics involved. There will still need to be a firearm overwatch, in case the dynamic situation escalates (subject ALSO has a gun). "

This is so sad, especially wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:31 PM:

" if the victim was mentally ill with bipolar disease or other disease and not taking prescribed medications. This happened to a former client of mine when I worked in a substance abuse facility and there was no need for it to happen when the man I knew was 20 feet from the officer. Our police officers should be taught the signs of mental illness and there are signs. Unfortunately, this happens to many bipolars - like 5 others all within about 6 months of the one I knew. "

The fact of the matter is.. wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:27 PM:

" Any time a police officer fires his weapon it is TO KILL. Police are not allowed to shoot for any other reason than to KILL. The debate should not be whether or not he shot the person in the right place, it should be whether or not the shooting was justified. That is what the coming investigation will dictate. "

Cops wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:14 PM:

" Do the best they can. The kid had the problem. In hindsight the officer may not have made the right choice. In the split second the choice had to be made we need to recognize we all might strike out in a similar manner. The kid had the problem, not the officer. The goal was to address the situation peacfully, but the victim chose not to. If the family disputes the prescence of a knife, why did they need the cops in the first place. "

crazy wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:14 PM:

" just like that poor kid on I-55 several yars back. shot in the back like 8 or 9 times while he was mentally handicaped and oh the cop walked away SCOTT FREE. one law for us and one law for them "

Paladin wrote on Apr 30, 2007 1:09 PM:

" ...OK, let's discuss this rationally. All those of you who would like for police officers to have another echelon of non-lethal / less-lethal response, which can allow the officer to provide interdiction at distance (ranged interdiction), let's hear your ideas. TASER is not reliable, and the company cannot seem to refute charges that it may cause lethality in certain potential targets / age groups. Pepperball, with RAP 4 style launcher? Viable, but needs much more field testing. Otherwise, interdiction at range, even for EDPs, means the firearm (when responding to LETHAL FORCE THREATS). "

If he lunged wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:53 PM:

" then the cop was perfectly justified using deadly force. You stand 10 feet from me and ill lunge at you...you will be amazed at how quick I get to you. If the 22 yr old ADULT was standing there then it is a different story. Love how people think the cops are always to blame first. "

RC wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:52 PM:

" Sounds like the cop should be on the Normal PD.... "

** wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:51 PM:

" I keep getting this error message when trying to post my comments: Invalid return payload: enable debugging to examine incoming payload I posted on another story today without this problem. Anybody know what this is? "

ooook wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:40 PM:

" Has anyone one of you EVER been in an emergency situation where your adrenaline is pumping? I have and trust me, you don't think. It's the Flight or Fight reaction. Granted the kid may not have been making threatening moves towards Mr. Officer but one little twitch would/could set off a "lethal weapon". (lethal weapon being Mr. Officer). Mr. Officer had adrenaline pumping though his body at amazing speeds most likely so anything could have happened. SO before we say SHOOT HIM IN THE KNEE!! how about putting yourself in an emergency situation? THEN you can come back and post the same thing...if you do, you need serious help my friend. (and excuse me if the grammar is bad.) "

To: *** wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:40 PM:

" Hey where are all you gun lovers!!! I figured you would love this stuff a gun, a threat and death. All the CC proponents what if this guy was in a school brandishing a knife then that is different right. Lets arm all teachers and let them kill the guy. He was a threat to the officer and the officer, provided the guy lunged at him, did the right thing. The other factor ever heard of suicide by cop. Maybe he did not have the guts to kill himself so he decided to have the cop kill him instead. This cop had a splt second to determine his intentions and then fire. Maybe the family should have caled for help sooner or made him take his medication. "

Former Resident Marshall Co. wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:27 PM:

" The Deputys that I knew in Marshall County. Did not have proper training. They also had little common sense. I would not trust them. "

Grandpa wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:26 PM:

" Hmmm...lots of people at the scene, including Grandpa. Young man has knife, but officer has gun. Officer shots gun, kills man..then says man lunged at him. How threatened was this officer when family members who had called police out of concern were there at the scene? And...THREE shots into the guy? I wonder if the first one stopped him, or if he was still **lunging** at the officer. "

WOW wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:25 PM:

" Cops are here to serve and protect. They protected the community from a person off their meds. with a knife. If you move towards an officer with a knife what do you expect to happen, that they sit you down and have a chat with you about why you shouldn't do that. Thank you Wayne Strawn and Richard Weers for keeping us safe. "

READ THIS wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:16 PM:

" So we shoot at his hand or foot? what if you MISS? Then you are laying on the ground with a knife in your chest! You can cover 10' in less than 1 second, you have to stop the threat, you aim for the biggest target (torso) to make sure you HIT THE TARGET! Hmm, if the person lunged at your significant other instead of the police, would you want a police officer to make SURE they are stopped? or should they shoot them in the leg and hope for the best? It's easy to second guess/ armchair quarterback when it is not you, you don't have the training or knowledge of handling these types of incidents. It is tragic this person died, but it sounds like a "suicide by cop" to me. "

TO MUCH TV... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 12:03 PM:

" shooting someone in the arm or leg with a 9mm or a .38 caliber handgun at close range is pretty fatal. major arteries in both these limbs and those guns make a small hole going in and a HUGE hole on the way out letting the person pretty much bleed to death. if the officer felt threatened then he did his job... "

NOOOOOOOO wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:59 AM:

" This guy is dead that's what he wanted what would you do if someone lunged and you with a knife??????? Try to shoot them in the knee or leg i don't think so you would try to save your life and shoot them whereever your gun was pointed and it sure wasnt' at the leg. When you pull your gun as an officer you are pulling it to stop the threat and the threat was that guy with the knife and the officer stopped him so he did his job he shouldn't get in any trouble he did what he is paid to do. HIS JOB "

OH MY wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:55 AM:

" You can't be for real you can not shoot a knife out of someones hand this is real life not the movies. And cops don't go to work so things acn be even and get in a knife fight with some dude that wants to kill him self anyways that's just a stupid statement. Don't be some dumb of course the grandpa is going to say his grandson did nothing wrong becuse he is pry still in shock that the officer shot him. Police react so they are able to go home to there family after shift they sure don't go to work wanting to kill someone but if it's me or them then it's going to be them not me that's for sure so come on get real. "

Idiot number 3 wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:50 AM:

" Ok - so don't try to shoot his hand - how about the foot or the knee. He'd drop the knife and they could take him down - problem solved. No one needed to die! "

Let's see~~ wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:40 AM:

" a man with a knife, a man with a gun. Knife loses and gun wins. Just goes to show you, men kill, not guns, but if you don't have a gun a knife will do or a bat, or a vehicle do, so lets all come out and complain about guns and that they should be taken away. Why? He had a knife!!!! I believe if man didn't move forward, cop should be charged. He is not a hero that's for sure. "

To .... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:40 AM:

" No, you would have DONE the same thing, not DID the same thing "

To: not an idiot wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:39 AM:

" Shooting a knife out of someone's hand is difficult - but if the suspect waslunging at a deputy with a knife, couldn't they have shot him in the leg or somewhere non-life threatening? It is obvious this man was mentally unstable - the family called the police for help, not to bury their loved one! "

to the anon NPD officer from 11:20AM wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:38 AM:

" I am sure you would have done the same thing. My grandfather was a sheriff deputy in the 60's and he often spoke of shooting someone in the leg or arm to get them to comply! trigger happy cops seem to be the norm in central illinois. I think I will move back up north were you only have to worry about the criminals and not the police. "

Joining the club wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:36 AM:

" I would like to join the idiot club, but let's maybe think about a name change......... My feeling is that the family did the right thing, they were concerned and notified police - which I am sure is something they will be sorry for, for the rest of their lives. Police are supposed to help us, not kill us. The guy was suicidal, not homicidal. He had a knife, the cops had a gun. Obviously, I wouldn't expect the responding officers to be able to sharp-shoot the knife out of the guy's hand, but perhaps they could have shot a limb, or any where else that would be non-fatal. I understand the use of force, but these cops were shooting to kill. Police wonder why even the law-abiding citizens don't like them. This is why. The majority of cops seem to be the kind of people who only became cops to satisfy their controlling whims. Rather than handle a situation without killing anybody, which could have been done here, they get trigger-happy. They became cops for this very reason - to kill, and get away with it. "

Paladin wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:28 AM:

" ..."Rule of 21": within 21 feet, a subject with a knife can kill you before you can deploy your sidearm from its holster and engage that subject. A knife, used in a threatening manner, demonstrates the use of lethal force (the threat of death or serious bodily injury). Appropriate response is lethal force. No one trains to "shoot to wound". If you are a big fan of the TASER, write PTI (the Police Training Institute at Champ[aign / Urbana). They have no published opinion on TASERs, because there isn't enough data (outside of the manufacturer's data) demonstrating that they work as advertised. "

.... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 11:20 AM:

" I probably would have did the same.....I want to go home to my family after shift "

not an idiot... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 10:57 AM:

" how about we just give them rocks, paper an scissors??? you ever try to shoot a knife out of someones hand??? some people amaze me... "

Idiot number 2... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 10:53 AM:

" I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one... "

Ummmm.... wrote on Apr 30, 2007 10:51 AM:

" Tazer! "

I'm the first idiot to post again!! wrote on Apr 30, 2007 10:36 AM:

" Again police shoot a man who does not have a gun! Why couldn't the Deputy just shoot the knife out of his hand, instead of shooting him? Or maybe the police officers should be issued knives so that the fight would have been even. Anyother idiots agree with me? "

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