Pantagraph.com | Letters | Critics of homosexuality might face a dilemma

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

mickwd1 wrote on Oct 28, 2007 7:56 PM:

" Interesting perspectives on homosexuality, and, off the mark on on most counts. The Pledge of Allegiance - a creed that was founded upon christian fundamentals, one of which was not homsexuality, does not embrace homosexuality; God is not lukewarm; The bible is clear in its postion on homosexuality; and the shellfish ban is no longer applicable. Gays' rights are not denied because they are gay, but only because their lifestyle carries them outside the protective umbrella of the traditional coverage afforded to the majority, and those who conform to traditional lifestyles as accepted by the majority. It is a choice gays voluntarily make, knowing the consequences of their choice. Do not try and villify the majority nor force them to accept a lifestyle because it fails to provide gays with what they want and cannot attain due simply to their incorrect choice. "

I do Not wrote on Oct 28, 2007 12:39 PM:

" I do not care who you have sex with.I really dont. It just does not matter. : ) "

RE: "Keep it to yourself wrote on Oct 26, 2007 11:35 AM:" wrote on Oct 27, 2007 6:50 AM:

" I get so sick of straight folks flaunting their sexuality and shoving it in my face! They hold hands in the mall, wear gold bands, kiss at restaurants, have framed photos of one another on their desks at work. It's sickening! I don't mind people being straight- I just wish they would keep it to themselves. "

It's simple as hell wrote on Oct 27, 2007 3:59 AM:

" Unless you're a convicted criminal and imprisoned, you're a free American and all free Americans are guaranteed equal freedoms. I realize folks are picking and choosing exactly what the Pledge says these days, but this is the one I grew up reciting: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Now it doesn't say "all whites" or "all males" or "all rich" or "all straights", it says: "ALL". PERIOD. I don't care what your religion says- if the sin isn't enough to get one convicted and thrown into prison where most rights are forfeited, than liberty for ALL means just that- liberty for ALL. This ain't rocket-science people. Gays are citizens too. "

Keep it to yourself wrote on Oct 26, 2007 11:35 AM:

" Ya know, I wouldn't have a problem with letting them keep their sexuality to themselves, but the more I hear about gay marriage and hearing gays wanting everyone to accept them and their lifestyle, it's no longer to themselves. Sorry for having an opinion. "

Gay Lobsters? wrote on Oct 26, 2007 1:06 AM:

" Many of you quote God and the Bible in talking about homosexuality. Actually, the Bible takes a much stronger stand against shellfish than on homosexuality. By comparison, God is really kind of lukewarm on gays. One must presume that God really hates Red Lobster and Vito's Clam House and those of you who frequent places like that are an abomination. "

To Prejudice? wrote on Oct 25, 2007 12:50 PM:

" I really, really hope you're not saying what I think you are. If you are suggesting the gays are child molesters, you are only showing your incredible ignorance and your own prejudice. You have added nothing to this already ludicrous debate and I trully hope you'll respond more intelligently in the future. I am ashamed for you. "

Quoting my wife and myself wrote on Oct 25, 2007 9:03 AM:

" ' Leave your sex life to yourselves. Get on with life. And shut up!" Both my wife and I have relatives and friends who are homosexual. We've lost some to AIDS. We don't believe it's the wrath of some imagined "gods." We believe in live and let live and keeping our private lives to ourselves. We believe it's a matter of choice brought on by familial or societal influences and not something the devil, god or mother nature had anything to do with. "

Oprah's show today wrote on Oct 24, 2007 6:12 PM:

" was gay-themed and I was shocked to learn that homosexuality was outlawed in Sweden in 1944 and here in the U.S. in 2003. So much for being the front-runner and innovator in freedom and personal liberty! What an embarrassment! "

Hospital Visitations? wrote on Oct 23, 2007 4:34 PM:

" So the hospital visitation is not about the law, but about the hospital? Wow, thats funny. No if you are LEGALLY MARRIED, the hospital can not deny you visitation. But since gays cannot LEGALLY MARRY (no religion mentioned) they have no rights to visitations. So though i have been with the same guy (yes i am a gay man) for 7 years, my family can tell him to leave my death bed. Seems fair right? I thought so too. No one can tell my brothers wife to lave though. Yep no difference there, all because you don;t want your religion infringed upon. thanks. you are a kind christian. "

RE: "Prejudice? wrote on Oct 23, 2007 1:19 PM:" wrote on Oct 23, 2007 2:19 PM:

" Your post has a place at the thread of an article that addresses people with attractions to children and animals- but not at one about the subject matter here. You may disagree with those who support equality for the gays and you may even find gays distasteful, but to even remotely compare them to those attracted to children or animals is not only inaccurate, but irresponsible and misleading. Especially during a week when no fewer than half a dozen artciles in the Pantagraph detail in-depth the molestation of children- apparently largely committed by non-gays. I encourage you to strive more diligently at honesty, kind sir or madam. "

Prejudice? wrote on Oct 23, 2007 1:19 PM:

" Is there anyone here who thinks it's the wrong kind of prejudice to deny housing to someone who is attracted to children or animals? "

Again: "Definition wrote on Oct 23, 2007 12:34 PM:" wrote on Oct 23, 2007 1:05 PM:

" Again- you offer a perfectly logical idea with sound data. Yet you fail to realize that many of Christian faith consider one's THOUGHTS to be as sinful as ones ACTIONS. You, evidently do not. But to others there is no distinction. Both will get you barbequed in the eternal Weber- one as easy as the other. "

TO: "Re Re Choice wrote on Oct 23, 2007 12:30 PM:" wrote on Oct 23, 2007 1:02 PM:

" I beg to differ... How many homosexuals are exhibiting "their behavior", asking you to view and accept it? Most have some idea of "their behavior" but never having witnessed it first-hand, none can truly be sure. Your perspective and the data provided- while a perfectly legitimate argument, can be countered just as effectively. Until gays are treated the same as YOU- they are not treated as you. One must accept that. "

Definition wrote on Oct 23, 2007 12:34 PM:

" It depends on how you define homosexuality. If you refer to the attraction to others of the same sex, I would say that is involuntary (i.e. not a choice). If you refer to the lifestyle, coming out, sexual acts, etc. That is a choice. Biblically this is refered to as temptation and sin. They are not the same, though they are related. Sin is giving in to temptation. So then the question becomes... If you have an attraction, should you reject it? While not easy, many people reject temptation in its many forms everyday. "

Re Re Choice wrote on Oct 23, 2007 12:30 PM:

" Denial of housing is by other prejudice, not gov’t. Same with jobs (though legal remedies should be available). Scouts are a private organization, and there have been legal actions against those prejudices. And mainly for use of public property. Churches have a right to deny people, though it will not look favorably on them. The hospital issue is hospital policy. Marriage makes it easier, but they could just as well change the rules. Besides that, there was a measure in Colorado not long ago where it made all these things easier for unmarried couples. However, pro-homosexual lobbyists rejected it because it did not include marriage. From all I’ve seen, it’s not the benefits they want, it’s the acceptance of their behavior. "

RE: "why the flamboyance wrote on Oct 22, 2007 1:10 PM:" wrote on Oct 22, 2007 9:08 PM:

" Well, now that I know you're ANNOYED by my gayness, well that sheds a whole new understanding on the issue. I'm honestly gonna try now NOT to be gay. 'Cause of all things in this world, you being annoyed is something I just could not live with. Thanks for illuminating this important and all too often ignored plight. Damn- I wonder if Ellen and Rosie know about your dlilemma????? I'm really, really gonna try... "

why the flamboyance wrote on Oct 22, 2007 1:10 PM:

" look, i am totally against people being gay, but what i hate the most is how flamboyantly gay some people can be!! the same way i hate how utterly jerkish some JERKS can be!! i dont necessarily discriminate against gay people but i sure dont like when they think it is necessary for them to make sure EVERYONE who comes within 40 yards of them knows they are gay!!! it's not a morale, religous or sexual issue for me. its more of an anoyance factor!!! what factor of wanting to be with the same sex makes them feel they need to be flamboyant??? "

Milorad wrote on Oct 22, 2007 12:54 PM:

" Gay...gay...gay...I'm tired of hearing about it! "

I think... wrote on Oct 22, 2007 12:13 PM:

" the world would be a much better place if everyone were gay! "

I think... wrote on Oct 22, 2007 6:29 AM:

" According to the bible, homosexuality is wrong, and furthermore you will be judged when you leave this earth. Homosexuality is a choice, not an inheritance. I think the world should donate a huge island, like Australia or Antartica for gay people only. They can all live there in peace and quit disrupting the lives of normal people because they want to fight for their "rights". "

Huckleberry wrote on Oct 20, 2007 7:41 AM:

" This argument has gone forever and no one has come up with a real answer. It's been said that even someones' name, particularly a name that could be used as male or female can have an affect on someones' sexual preference, e.g. Pat, Gene etc. Maybe changing your name can change you sexual preference. "

Imascared wrote on Oct 19, 2007 4:04 PM:

" keep them kind away from me. "

RE: "Ed wrote on Oct 19, 2007 12:37 PM:" wrote on Oct 19, 2007 4:01 PM:

" So, let me get this straight... you believe their are men out their having sex with other men, who really are not gay and would prefer to have sex w/ women? And they're having sex with men simply to make their folks' mad? Lordy- that's a concept I don't get at all. How many men do YOU know who would have sex with another man because they're attempting to shock their parents? Are you for real? Are they doing this on top of the family supper table as Mom and Dad look on in horror- or in the privacy of their own bedrooms where their parents cannot see? This is new to me. Man- you need to put the lid back on the bottle, buddy! Take a step back and stop the madness! "

I am gay. wrote on Oct 19, 2007 3:57 PM:

" I have not had sex since my partner of 19 years passed away in 1998. That's almost 10 years with no sex. Yet I am still gay. Folks should not confuse homosexualiy as a strictly SEXUAL issue. I know gay people who have NEVER had sex. The difficulty some gay people have endured against equality in most cases has absolutley nothing to do with the bedroom or physical sex acts. "

RE: "Choice wrote on Oct 19, 2007 7:51 AM:" wrote on Oct 19, 2007 3:53 PM:

" Are you serious? Solely on the basis of their sexual orientation gay people have historically been denied housing, been denied or fired from their jobs, been denied bank loans, been denied access to serve in the military and all the benefits including cost of college education, been denied access to serve as boy-scouts or scout leaders, been denied access to certain churches, been denied access to a long-time mate during their hospital stays, been denied inheritance, pensions, and social security benenfits of their life-partner, been denied the right to adopt, been denied access to trade at certain businesses, the list literally goes on and on and on. Are theese truly things you never realized before? For real? "

RE: "Choice wrote on Oct 19, 2007 7:51 AM:" wrote on Oct 19, 2007 3:47 PM:

" As a gay person, I certainly believe part of your premise- up to a point. Once a gay person- ALWAYS a gay person. Although one definitely has the power to like a priest, become abstinent and deny themself sexual relations for the balance of their life. One also has the power to like Senator Craig or the Rev. Ted Haggert SAY they aren't gay, get married, have kids and TRY like the dickens to ACT str8, but then flounder and "mess up" occasionally the rest of their lives bringing pain and humiliation to themselves, their family. So yes- in THAT capacity, I agree with you, that one certainly can "decide to stop being gay". How could I not feel this way- afterall, thoughought my sexual life I have met men who "decided to stop being straight" only problem was- they forgot to let their wives know about it! Lastly- just last week I decided to STOP being red-haired. See? It works on ALL levels! "

Ed wrote on Oct 19, 2007 12:37 PM:

" I feel that being gay is a new fad like bell bottems.Do not get me wrong I believe that some people are gay and they were born that way but I also think that today at least half the people saying they are gay really are not.I do not know why people would do this except shock to their family,had many bad relationships with men or women,I truely do not know why but this what I think. "

The real problem wrote on Oct 19, 2007 7:55 AM:

" The real problem with our society is not homosexuality, per se, but rather the overwhelming sexuality as a whole flooding our society. Sex is not a special thing shared by married couples anymore, and sex outside the marriage relationship is no longer shunned or made to be evil. Television shows and movies show much more unmarried sex than married sex (I dare someone to tell me the last married sex scene they saw). For that matter, MTV is sickening in this regard, with all these shows about teenagers and young adults. It's no longer about love, it's about recreation. That has caused more damage than homosexuality. "

Besides marriage... wrote on Oct 19, 2007 7:52 AM:

" What other rights are being taken away. This is not meant to be cynical. This is an honest question. (I say besides marriage because that's been mentioned at length already) "

Choice wrote on Oct 19, 2007 7:51 AM:

" What if I were to say "I don't want to be gay"? The biggest problem with the "gay gene" theory and the idea that homosexuality is not a chioce, is that... well you don't have a choice. I think that's wrong and hopeless. Numerous people have turned away from the homosexual lifestyle for one reason or another. Many for religious reasons, i.e. they thought it was wrong. I would certainly not say that turning away from these feelings are easy. Far from it. But I think our society has driven it into our heads that we cannot do anything about homosexual feelings and desires, to the point where the American Psychological Association has said that people can harm themselves if they don't accept them. "

I like this idea of a tax-break wrote on Oct 18, 2007 4:17 PM:

" for gays. Fewer rights? Then fewer taxes! Makes sense to me! Once the gay gene is found and biological links can be proven, I believe a law-suit will be in perfect order! "

RE: "New Christian wrote on Oct 18, 2007 1:39 PM:" wrote on Oct 18, 2007 4:14 PM:

" It is not wrong or hateful to have an opinion. But is can be dreadfully inappropriate or wrong or even sinful to be vocal about your personal opinion- or to express it in such a way that is inconsisent with the teachings of most faiths. There are a hundred ways to voice that "being gay is wrong" in a manner that is sinful. Many Christians completely fail to realize this. Afterall many parents quote scripture whilst beating their children but that isn't gonna keep them out of the fires of hell. The Rev. Fred Phelps and those from his Baptist church carry signs that read: "God Hates Fags" while also quoting scripture. Nope. Ain't gonna save you. If you believe that being gay is wrong- vocalizing that doesn't necessarily buy you a place at a heavenly table. In fact, it could be cause for you to pack for much warmer weather come the judgment! "

New Christian wrote on Oct 18, 2007 3:31 PM:

" I never said God wasn't against these other sins I mentioned only gay relationships because that is what this article is about. As for the interpretation of the Bible If you do any research on the number of historical copies of the Bible comapred with any other written work of ancient times you will find it is remarkably well maintained and I believe it would take an at of God to maintain a work that has so much contraversy in it and therfore the bible is an inspired work of God "

OH i've got more for ya new christian... wrote on Oct 18, 2007 2:48 PM:

" Who are you to decide what acts go against God's will? Who are you to decide which specific acts in the bible to live by? You do not speak for God. Just as no one can speak for you or me, no one can speak for God. So do not sit there and tell me what acts God says are Ok to condemn in the bible and what acts aren't. That is a human interpretation, not a Godly one. Why have you chosen a crusade against gays as your path to get you closer to God. Do you think God is going to look better upon you because you chose to condemn a group of people? Of all the issues and problems in this world you choose homosexuality??? Try poverty, murder and wars. Those affect the world, not homosexuality. IN MY OPINION, god does not give a damn about homosexuality compared to that of murder, hunger and peace which homosexuality has nothing to do with. "

Hey New Christian... wrote on Oct 18, 2007 2:42 PM:

" I would love to know who inspired you to Christianity. Here is the counter point to your argument. I'll make it as simple as possible. White privileged men wrote the bible. The bible has been revised and re-interpreted many times over. The bible condemns countless amounts of acts. So how do you justify condemning gays when you don't condemn those who have pre-marital sex, who buy clothes/accessories in excess, those who get drunk occasionally because by those standards I'd say about 95% of college students right now are going straight to Hell. The bible also says Christ is the only way. Does that mean every single Muslim, Hindu, Jew or those unaffiliated with religion are going to hell? That is absolutely not the God I believe in and I feel sorry for you if that is the God you follow because my God does not make it a competition to see who can enter Heaven. "

New Christian wrote on Oct 18, 2007 1:39 PM:

" Many people claim that it is hatefull to be against the gay life style and at one point in time I would have agreed with them, but over the last few years I have come to be a believer in Christ and now realize that what would be hatefull is to turn a blind eye to someone who is furthering themselves from God. It is love for all and the honest hope that everyone will spend eternity in heaven instead of hell that requires Christians to speak out against against this lifestyle. For as forgiving as God is he made it clear in the bible he will not forgive the sins that we dont try to turn from. "

to: "chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Oct 17, 2007 6:48 PM:" wrote on Oct 18, 2007 6:50 AM:

" you make a really good point. if you're gonna suffer fewer rights and if the U.S. can't meet your needs then I agree you should get a tax break! maybe even a huge one! "

RE: "As a Christian... wrote on Oct 18, 2007 12:44 AM:" wrote on Oct 18, 2007 5:27 AM:

" One of the wisest things I've ever heard a Christian say. Really. Wow. "

RE: "In my day wrote on Oct 17, 2007 7:34 PM:" wrote on Oct 18, 2007 1:31 AM:

" You are so right! When I was a kid 40 years ago I grew up hearing the N-word and hearing demeaning talk about Blacks and "others". They say you are a product of how you are raised- but I beg to differ, because even at 5 and 6 years old I knew that talk from my parents and extended family was WRONG. I was embarrassed to have come from people who thought that way. Similarly, ever since I was young, I have heard awful things said about gays. And I knew then- just as I know now that it too was awful, mean and wrong. Why don't some people just get it? "

As a Christian... wrote on Oct 18, 2007 12:44 AM:

" I try to live by the 'acceptance without approval' rule. I can accept anyone as they are - without approving or condoning what they do or what they don't do. I expect no less from anyone else. I have friends I love dearly who believe differently than I do on many issues, that doesn't keep us from being friends and caring for one another. My lifestyle and choices are my own and theirs are their own as well. No judgements are made and we all get along nicely, thank you. "

In my day wrote on Oct 17, 2007 7:34 PM:

" we called homosexuals "nervous". Back then we talked about it less, but even then no one had much good to say about them. The world's changed a bit, but folks still are a bit too in denial about what gays are, why they're that way, and whether or not it is wrong or alright to be gay. Funny- even in the 40's, just like I knew it was wrong to hate Black folks- I knew what I was hearing about gays was backwards and wrong. And those still saying it today are even MORE backwards and wrong, 'cause they've got the benefit of evolution and advancement behind them. It's pitiful, really. And they should be ashamed. "

You can't tell me wrote on Oct 17, 2007 7:30 PM:

" that being gay is not something you're born with. I knew my nephew was gay 20 years before he did! Even at 4 years old he was tossing aside trucks for barbies and always choosing to wear pink frilly aprons and to be the "mom" when the kids played house. Not that all gays are feminine (some even grow up to be married and become Senators!)- but Nathan definitely was/is. That's just who he is and we love him as he is and as he always has been- gay. And I read the Bible too but nowhere in it have I ever read: gays will be to blame for all that is bad in your life- and the cause of all that is evil. Some of you are just SO confused! "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Oct 17, 2007 6:48 PM:

" I am gay and I DO NOT want equality. I am perfectly fine living on the sidelines as a second-class citizen with the "plan B rights-package". But, I DO want my mega tax-break for getting SCREWED in this American process of false liberty and diminished rights. C'mon... to hell w/ marriage-equality... cut my taxes. NOW. "

RE: "Its true that wrote on Oct 17, 2007 3:01 PM:" wrote on Oct 17, 2007 6:44 PM:

" The falsest statement at this thread. Can there be a bigger lie with a clearer motive? Get outta here, dude. You are pointless and invalid. "

I agree with "A point to be made wrote on Oct 17, 2007 11:47 AM:" wrote on Oct 17, 2007 6:42 PM:

" Homosexuals who don't want to adopt children that str8's have abandoned, and str8s who are infertile or who desire no children and manage not to get accidentally knocked-up should be banished! For the Bible tells me so..... "

Hey it's true that... wrote on Oct 17, 2007 3:31 PM:

" Really, really hope you're not serious because you sound like an ignorant fool. I'm not sure if you're promoting gay rights by telling us to catch up with Europe or trying to rally the right by telling us to fear the gays because they're going to try and make man/woman relationships illegal... Whatever you're post was supposed to do, it was stupid. As for everyone else... All biblical and legal references aside is it really going to hurt you personally if two gay people get married? Should we not be worried about wars, genocide, children killing children, the economic divide in this country, etc. I highly doubt that homosexuality has anything to do with any of that so can we not just let it go and let people who love one another have the same rights as anyone else? "

Its true that wrote on Oct 17, 2007 3:01 PM:

" Many European countries are making homosexuality their legal national sexual preference. Over there men and women are not allowed to be together any more. They are always way ahead of the US in things like fashion and sex. "

I am a Christian wrote on Oct 17, 2007 2:11 PM:

" My Bible does speak of some terrible things. It is human nature all the wicked things are things that happened God did not make them happen. Just like all the horrible things you can read in the paper everyday..Mothers killing their kids. Kids killing kids if you want to read the Bible read the whole thing No one will ever take Gods word away from me and my children. I have no hatred for anyone God teaches everyone to Love each other and he will take care of the rest of it. God is the only Judge everyone else needs to stay out of it. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. "

oh yes wrote on Oct 17, 2007 12:26 PM:

" good point BUT please see: selective interpritation. cause those were real good points as well! :) "

A point to be made wrote on Oct 17, 2007 11:47 AM:

" "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Genesis 1:28 How do you increase in number if you are homosexual? "The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh'...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:23 and 24 "

Hey Seattle- wrote on Oct 17, 2007 9:24 AM:

" I can identify with your feelings. I am actually from Port Townsend, WA and like you I am here for school purposes. I miss PT but B/N isn't all bad. You just have to get out there and meet folks- and be selective 'cause it's DEFINITELY a mixed group (ie; lotsa less-desirables no matter WHO you are or what you're looking for). The two quotes I've heard here that make the best sense of the place to me are: 1.) The Mid-West: region in which life goes on elsewhere, and 2.) From small towns come small minds. Like you, coming from the Pac N-West with many preconceived notions about the heartland, I expected KINDNESS & WARMTH. But am not finding it. "

LOL wrote on Oct 17, 2007 9:13 AM:

" we are not ALL that "bad" blm/norm leaves much to be desired but its not all bad!!! :) take most of what you see on here with a grain of salt, most of these ppl just want to argue about something/anything because they are bored with their own lives. they would argue over the color of grass if the opertunity was there, so don't believe everything you read, not here or in the pantagraph!! :) "

Area Resident to Seattle Transplant wrote on Oct 17, 2007 7:36 AM:

" To be fair, Bloomington-Normal is a little different than other Illinois cities, and it kind-of has its own little weird thing going on. I grew up in Chicago which is in a league of its own, and I have spent a lot of time in Champaign. Champaign is a little more of what you would consider a "college" town with a broader spectrum of science and artsy types. Bloomington_normal is a little uppity for my taste, and ISU students(bless their little hearts) are some of the most shallow, intellectually devoid college students I have ever seen. (But we try to teach them anyway!) Nice list of heros, it could use some women, and maybe a few more liberals, just kidding! "

RE: "Area Resident wrote on Oct 16, 2007 4:31 PM:" wrote on Oct 16, 2007 7:56 PM:

" I'm here from Seattle involved in a program at U of I and living with my ill grand-dad just outside of Bloomington. I grew up hearing of life in Illinois from my parents and grandparents. My heroes for years have been famous legendary Illinoisans: Lincoln, Sandburg, Bradberry, Reagan, A. Stevenson, Harrison Ford, Walt Disney, W.J. Bryan, John Chancellor, Benny Goodwin, Miles Davis, Hemmingway, Rock Hudson, Burl Ives, Quincy Jones, Bob Newhart... all sweet, kind, talented, heroic, fair-minded men worthy of being idolized. "

Selective Bible Interpritation wrote on Oct 16, 2007 6:39 PM:

" I don't understand why people always point to the Bible as a way to discriminate or look down on others. People are hippocrits if they choose to take some parts of the Bible literally and not others. For those of you who chose to use the Bible as proof, take a look at Exodus 21:7. It says you can sell your children into slavery. Better yet, look at Exodus 35:2. It says you can kill someone for working on the sabbath. Wait, there is more... Leviticus 11:7 stated handling the skin of a dead pig makes you unclean. Hope everyone is not eating bacon, ham, sausage, or play fooball. If you do, I sure hope you wear gloves! The Bible is full of verses like this. Can someone PLEASE tell me why some parts are taken literally, but others are not. Get real people, the Bible is a good thing, but once you start to take things written thousands of years ago (with a political perspective) literally, you are in trouble. "

Seattle Transplant wrote on Oct 16, 2007 4:38 PM:

" I think I arrived here from the west coast with a preconceived notion that above all else, the mid-west was a FAIR place. I was (am?) energized, enthused and encouraged by this ideal. I just knew I would experience a certain kind of people- a certain standard of living because of the FAIRNESS that I knew I would run into here. I'm having to look really hard though... I'm not finding fairness in the quantites I expected to. If you're having difficulty following my idea, log-onto newspaper forums in other locales, Seattle, Bangor, MN., Atlanta, San Antonio, Boise, Minneapolis, Omaha... The public forums at all of these places are void of what those here (not only the Panatagraph) seem to be overflowing with. Cetainly all opinions are represented in all of these places- but there is not the bitterness and battle that there seems to be here. I've never been to a place where people seem so angry at one another. Somehow that is telling of the people here- how could it NOT be? But I've yet to figure it all out... my experience is ongoing. "

Area Resident wrote on Oct 16, 2007 4:31 PM:

" I think the (lack of) kindness comes from the fact that this is an unmoderated, open, anonymous forum. It's one of the only examples I have ever seen. People are in no way accountable for what they say. I'm sure you would get the same phenomena anywhere. BTW, why did you move here? All of my friends have left the midwest to move 'to Seattle.' "

TO:to seattle wash.... wrote on Oct 16, 2007 3:13 PM:

" wow dude, you are all kinds of warm and fuzzy!!! gesh.... U need some anger managment!!! in a bad way!! i for one would rather be a hippy then act like you. and this person is right when they say the midwest is not that nice, we are NOT, not all of us anyway, way more mean ppl here then anything else!!!! does not mean you have to prove his point by acting like a jack A**!!!!! LOL not everyone here acts like you thank god or most of us would have to move to seattle wash!!! "

Biological/genetic Cause. wrote on Oct 16, 2007 3:06 PM:

" If its not a choice. If there is a physical cause. Society will find it. When it is found, society will eliminate it. "

To Seattle transplant wrote on Oct 16, 2007 3:03 PM:

" The majority of the comments on these blogs come from a few individuals. You can tell by the degree of reason and logic expressed in their comments. Most people in this community hold strong opinions on some subjects. On the other hand, you will find very few of them that are going to express the degree of vitriol that you will see from some of the regular posters. Most people realize that name calling and disrespect for authority are useless and immature. By the way, I have been to Seattle on numerous occasions. People are the same everywhere. If you take a step back and realize that everyone has a right to their opinion, I think you will agree. (by the way, Salmon fishing in the Sound? how could you leave that?) "

read wrote on Oct 16, 2007 1:57 PM:

" King James Version Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:..... ICor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind ....(Hebrew word for effeminate was technical term for male prostitue) New Century Version Lev 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with another man as a man does with a woman, these two men have done a hateful sin....... I Cor 6: 9 Surely you know that the people who do wrong will not inherit God's Kingdom. Do not be fooled. Those who sin sexually, worship idols, take part in adultery, those who are male prostitutes, or men who have sexual relations with other men... From the Hebrew and Greek, 2 teams, 2 sets of English words, same meaning "

to seattle washtington wrote on Oct 16, 2007 1:25 PM:

" your state is a bunch of hippies. who cares. move back home. "

TO: Seattle translpant wrote on Oct 16, 2007 9:40 AM:

" Unfortunatley this is for real. The familiarity you speak of is from dealing with the "other" side of issues for awhile. This town will scream and argue about anything. It kind of reminds me of the movie "PCU" where EVERYONE has a cause. You will come to find out this town is very small minded regardless of how "Metropolitan" they would attempt to make it appear. Sorry to spoil your image of the Mid-west. They are friendly in small towns, but they can also be JUST as closed minded and bitter (depends on which town.) Hope you enjoy your visit and you make it out sane. "

Seattle Transplant wrote on Oct 16, 2007 2:57 AM:

" Just moved here to go to school. This is all a joke, right? Do you all know each other? There's a "familairity" amongst those here that makes it appear as though you're all one dysfunctional family- OR like perhaps the mid-west isn't quite as friendly as I've always heard, afterall. Are you all really this rude and in people's busniess in such a cold and in-your-face manner? It's actually all a bit shocking to a new-comer... And I don't think I like it. Can someone please comment for real- is this all truly for real? "

What? wrote on Oct 15, 2007 5:23 PM:

" I really wish it were just that easy.....you know, to decide not to be gay. It doesn't work that way however. You can't compare being gay to being fat. Did you choose to be straight? By the way, choosing a gender means you have to find pleasure from both. So no, I really don't think you chose to be gay, or straight. You are who you are......embrace it. "

Ideas wrote on Oct 15, 2007 11:29 AM:

" We may have lots of ideas on this topic, but only one idea is the best one! Hmm, how can we decide the best one? "

Fact 1 and 2 rebuttals wrote on Oct 15, 2007 11:05 AM:

" Why would some subject themselves to ridicule? Martyrdom. The pro-gay people celebrate and honor those who come come out. Further, why would someone subject themselves to ridicule for being fat? It's because they like to eat more than they dislike the ridicule. Similar could be said for homosexuality. Fact 2 - many people are predisposed genetically to be fat or to have certain addictions like alcoholism, but that doesn't excuse their condition. Many people have decided they did NOT want to be gay, despite the culture telling them it's okay. Some have turned away from it (like Chris earlier) and have denied it, and live perfectly healthy lives. You don't hear much about them because the pro-gay crowd doesn't want people to know that you don't have to be gay if you don't want to. "

In our genes. wrote on Oct 15, 2007 10:46 AM:

" Actually, the most recent evidence finds that the propensity for homosexuality is related to a unusual Chemical architecture in the brain. Variations of this architecture are also indicated as the cause for pedophillia, antisocial tendencies, shyness, and turetts. "

love all people wrote on Oct 15, 2007 10:39 AM:

" If my daughter was a nymphomaniac, I would not disown her. I would hate what she did. I would not enable it. I would do my best to help her find a better life. But I would have no difficult choice. I would still love her. Just because an impulse is difficult to resist, does not make it acceptable. "

I'd like to encourage wrote on Oct 14, 2007 9:07 PM:

" anyone with a new idea on this topic to share it. But I'd like to promote another idea too- that for months now at the Pantagraph, several similarly-themed articles have brought literally HUNDREDS of postings at threads that seem to be resulting in the SAME 3-4 positions on BOTH sidea of this argument. It seems the gay-haters have about 4 ideas about why they find being gay wrong, tasteless and disgusting. And similarly- gay supporters have about 4 ideas that exhibit the opposite view. And the hundreds of others are simply variations on the theme. BOR-RING! Anything new? Please share! Same old- same old? Then SHUT-UP, and STOP dragging this out! "

i love it when... wrote on Oct 14, 2007 6:38 PM:

" i for one, truly enjoy how "so called christians" preach hate and intollerance towards other human beings...that's exactly what god wanted us to do... fact #1: being gay is not a choice, if it were, why would a person subject themselves to the ridicule that these hate mongers display fact #2: 10% or more of the population is genetically determined to be gay...while some of us choose to be true to ourselves, and not lie about who we are...i for one have found that those that are the biggest bible thumpers...are trying to work through the most gay issues out of any of us... i'm kind and courteous to other humans, i do volunteer work, i donate towards charities, i'm highly educated (master's in engineering), and work to help educate the less fortunate...and all of this goes by the way side when you highly biggoted critics find out that i'm gay...isn't hateful preaching a wonderful thing...b/c of pre-conceived notions...you don't even give people a real chance to find out who they really are...HOW SAD! this is the civilized world isn't it?!?!??! "

people wrote on Oct 14, 2007 1:15 PM:

" can do or be whichever they want, but need to stop trying to influence others to be the same as them. "

to: Your Bible is SICK, TWISTED and DISTURBING! wrote on Oct 14, 2007 12:39 PM:

" WOW! I never knew. I never read the bible, but I might have to start! Horse schlongs and money shots? who needs internet. "

Gay topics here... wrote on Oct 13, 2007 11:00 PM:

" ...always, always seem to get lengthy and drag-out for weeks. Why? Becuase the gay topic easily lends itself to many pent-up emotions folks have about religious beliefs. Many worship- many abhore worship. The hot air isn't usually directly related to the gay issue at all- rather the need for all to feel HEARD regarding their attraction to- or repulsion from religion. Some (not all) from both sides forget that all have the soild right to feel either way. Yet others insist that their way is the only way. And you can always tell who is who from the language each uses. Some are ac tually naive enough at these threads to "sepak" as though they are the first one ever posing the idea they have. Anyone who's read more than one of these though knows that there are only really a few basic ideas- and that all who follow are only expressing the same- over and over again. I haven't read an original thought on this subject for decades- only rehashing of the same ones. Oh well- enjoy the bloodshed, folks! "

Christians and Government, wrote on Oct 13, 2007 8:26 AM:

" STAY OUT OF MY BEDROOM. (And don't even try peeking through the crack in the door, for a cheap thrill, either.) Unless you're invited in- what I do behind that closed door is OFF LIMITS to your nosey prying eyes. "

xefic wrote on Oct 13, 2007 7:54 AM:

" Aren't we missing the point? Isn't it a textbook example of insanity when people attempt to force others to live by the inaudible dictates of a being that they insist exists even though it can't be seen, felt, heard, or in any other way detected? I mean, really: Trying to force society to conform to your specific interpretation of ancient literature (wrongly) ascribed to a primitive, bronze age desert society? It would be comical if people weren't being killed for this cause. "

God wrote on Oct 13, 2007 7:28 AM:

" Okay, I want you all to battle to the death over this topic...on one side, we'll have the bible thumpers, who should be used to committing genocide to those who do not believe as they do.....on the other, we'll have those pushing acceptance and tolerance onto others, while remaining intolerant of the bible thumpers.........ready?..........GO! "

to: RE don't brainwash our kids wrote on Oct 12, 2007 10:35 PM:

" You say:" So..... what I get from your post is gays should respect people who do not consider them equals, who wish to prohibit their claim to equality and should take a back seat and put up with remaining second-class. Of course you'll forgive me if I decide to use your own term "bovine excrementia" to describe this line of thought. "You missed the points completely. The main point is "respect our kids and leave your private life out of their lives." Gayness is not a lifestyle most people want for their children and if you are gay, keep your brainwashing to your own children, if you have the good taste to recognize why there are opposite genders. It should be a crime to try to sell a child on any kind of sex and that includes everyone up to 18 years old or whatever the "age of majority" is in your state. Reread my post and you'll notice that I never called gays second class, unequal or back seaters but I'll make an exception for you because you admit it by saying "remaining." "

So, Dear Abby says it's in our genes! wrote on Oct 12, 2007 10:01 PM:

" Well, not her, but a bunch of college professors and the like. What I want to know is what does Walter Cronikite say about it? "

Ann Heche is not reformed. wrote on Oct 12, 2007 9:57 PM:

" She is a bi sexual, which is probably what ALL so called gays are, specially the ones trying to convince women they're better than "straights." Give us a break, folks. Stop trying to brain wash our children with your stereotypes. "

Vicious! wrote on Oct 12, 2007 9:54 PM:

" Never get a "gay" mad at you! Some of these comments are going to take the name "gay"away from homosexuals! I've never seen so many bitter rationalizations. "

To: windycity2 wrote on Oct 12, 2007 7:20 PM:

" Clearly you think you know something. So tell us, Where did the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve get their spouses, males and females? Yet partner and reproduce they did. Bible says so. Incest? The Bible would not allow it (too much). Sex with sub or near human animals? Another morally risky proposition. Does not the Bible suggest that God created everything? So, does it not follow that He must have made MORE people to start with that just the two? Since you do NOT know the names of ALL the people in either the first or second generations, you cannot swear on the Bible that Bruce and Steve were never there. Unless you want to bear False Witness. "

RE: "To i wish wrote on Oct 12, 2007 1:42 PM:" wrote on Oct 12, 2007 3:11 PM:

" My roommate digs both chicks AND guys. He bounces back and forth betweeen one or the other and he identifies as bisexual. That doesn't mean he is "ex-gay". "Ex-gay camps" like "Exodus Ministries" have long been exposed time and again for what they are: ineffective scam-camps derived to steal money from the rich desperate anti-gay families of gays who force their family members into these "reformatories" and write check after check after check to get the sin totally purged from their systems ("excuse me Mr. & Mrs. Smith, I know you've already paid us $73,412.63 BUT, and we've come a long ways in making your son pretty much straight again- but we strongly feel that if you were to send just ONE more teensy-weensy check in the amount of a few thousand, we could give him one last dose of secret-formula all-natural "anti-gay sirum" that will then likely ensure his straightness for all the rest of his life- rather than just HALF of it. Please make the check out in my name..." "

To i wish wrote on Oct 12, 2007 1:42 PM:

" But it happens and there are thousands of ex-gays who can attest to it. Remember Ann Heche who was the gay girlfriend of Ellen Degeneres? "

i wish wrote on Oct 12, 2007 1:17 PM:

" that some of you people that are agianst gays and lesbians . have a child that comes to you and says mom and dad iam gay .would you love them less if so then how could you call yourself a true christian .i love my daughter no matter what she picks and the bible thumping belongs in your own home dont try to force your beleifs on others. this is the way they are born you cant choose.ive never heard of any gay and or lesbian .come home and say ,HEY MOM AND DAD IAM NOT GAY ANYMORE I WAS CURED BY THE BIBLE . "

Area Resident to Re wrote on Oct 12, 2007 11:04 AM:

" lol. Your statements are humorous. So, you are for censorship of the Bible? You have quite a battle on your hands! Considering the amount of pornography and distasteful material oozing from every crevice of society. Do you not think there maybe a more practical place to start your crusade. Well, good luck anyway! "

I support gays and lesbians wrote on Oct 12, 2007 9:37 AM:

" in the struggle for marriage equality and I would not be able to do so if I were not a believer in the Bible and in God's love. The teachings of Christ that I have studied closely for over fifty years give me no option but to empathize with and offer support to these children of Him. Make whatever argument you wish for not supporting these brothers and sisters of ours- but that is a sin I will leave to you- I simply won't commit it. "

RE: "Area Resident to: Are the claims wrote on Oct 12, 2007 8:27 AM:" wrote on Oct 12, 2007 9:32 AM:

" I strongly disagree with what you say you "appreciate" being included in the Bible. There is no justification for it. This is stuff that any and all of us would fight like hell to get banned from any other book. And with so many literally fighting to get this book into the hands of so many children, I find the actions more than objectionable. In fact, your argument is the exact one claimed by supporters of Robert Mapplthorpe's bizarre, tasteless and troubling photography several years back. There is NO public place for this up to and including the Bible or church. From no matter what angle there is no virtue in defending it. "

Area Resident to: Are the claims wrote on Oct 12, 2007 8:27 AM:

" Numbers 31 refers to Moses instructing the Isrealites to take vengeance on the Medianites(at Gods behest.) He(Moses) was angered because they spared the women and children, he then instructed them to kill everyone but the virgin women. I see nothing about the consumption of "male" seed in Leviticus, only that punishment for disobedience will include enemies eating the seed of their crops, and people would be driven to cannabilization(sadly of the children) due to starvation. Malachi 2 refers to a warning by God to the priests, that if they do not do right by him, that he shall spread the waste parts(any inedible part) of animal sacrifice on their faces(no mention of sex acts.) NOW, the story of the prostitute in Ezekial 23 is true and very pornographic, but so are many relics of ancient times. From Greek pottery to rock carvings by Aborigines all over the world, there have always been depictions of sexuality. And it is certainly mild compared to the lewdness of modern culture. I appreciate these things not being edited out of the bible. Indeed, it reflects the human element of the writing, and a window into the minds of ancient times. "

windycity2 wrote on Oct 12, 2007 6:44 AM:

" God made Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve! nuff said "

Are the claims made wrote on Oct 12, 2007 12:07 AM:

" by: "SICK, TWISTED and DISTURBING!" really true? "

No Mystey Here wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:27 PM:

RE: "Seriously wrote on Oct 11, 2007 6:20 PM:" wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:14 PM:

" I absolutely agree. What these folks need is jobs- or hobbies. Some folks seem to hang out here for lack of better things to do. Some of them I imagine get much of their "social" interaction at places like the Pantagraph. Wow. "

You're a Liar wrote on Oct 11, 2007 6:26 PM:

" The Bible does not say those things. You're the sicko. You ought to be ashamed. "

Seriously wrote on Oct 11, 2007 6:20 PM:

" If everyone would just mind their own business this wouldn't be an issue. Some of you are going to have a heart attack over this. Instead of spending all of your time condemning/arguing over something you have no control over, why not go volunteer in a soup kitchen or something. "

RE: "Oh Brother wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:29 PM:" wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:51 PM:

" I don't hate you for "stating the truth" I hate you for STILL evading the question, even after it's been dumbed-down and re-phrased. I cannot put it any simpler. So I will give up on the idea that perhaps you can answer it. The truth is- there is no answer. It is complicated and not understandable at all (even though you state it is clear and completely understandable) which leaves it open to several interpretations- aka MISINTERPRETATION. But you seem unwilling to address or admit this. The thing you've said that stands out most still is there is only ONE INTERPRETATION. I challenge this- you cannot answer. Period. "

Oh Brother wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:29 PM:

" I will make one more comment here and then I'm done. I did not say the Bible is clear on or even adresses every topic known to man. All I am saying is that it is very clear on the issue of homosexualiity. It is written clearly and it means what it says, nothing mysterious there. You don't need a scholar to explain it. The many historical english translations written by teams of scolars are reliable and the plain meaning can be understood easily by anyone who chooses to read it. If you don't like that, so be it, reject it. But, don't lie and say the Bible condones it. It isn't true It is a sin that can and will be forgiven if the sinner admits the sin, turns from it, (hello) and is given the gift of salvation that only God can give. I don't hate any of you for being homosexual so why hate me because I am stating the truth about what a book says. Some of you people who call Christians hateful need to face the own hate that is in your heart. "

Also... wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:15 PM:

" ...is it really true that Moses, one of the Bible's hugest heros actually was a murderer? How does this make him the legendary hero that he is that we're all supposed to learn from, revere and follow? In today's society he would have been LOCKED UP- or perhaps EXECUTED- as many Christians seem to promote. How weird is that? Many Bible-thumpers today are FOR the death penalty, yet how many of their Biblical heroes would have been executed and prevented from becoming Bible heroes had they lived in today's times? Moses woulda gotten the chair. What is admirable about these criminals? Why are we believing them? "

Hey, "Your Bible is SICK, TWISTED and DISTURBING! wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:15 AM:" wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:10 PM:

" Lordy- Lordy! I read those verses and they really ARE sick! At first I was SURE you were lying- but it's all right there! Why has this not gotten out? Why has the Bible not been ENTIRELY BANNED from schools and from children? Does Ezekiel REALLY speak of what I THINK it does? A prostitute and a man having a_ like a horse’s, and a huge….. um… “dis-charge”? Why is this sicko crap even in the Bible? Why is it not talked about more? Who ever said this pornographhy pushed by churches was “the greatest book ever written”? It reads like perverted smut, really. And Jerry Falwell had the nerve to try and shut Larry Flynt down? No wonder Pastor Ted Haggert renting a prostitute, and priests repeatedly molessting youngsters isn’t a big deal to these people- they were embarrassed the public found out- but that was all… What gives? Ugh! Icky! "

RE: "To: Dear: wrote on Oct 11, 2007 12:43 PM:" wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:54 PM:

" Okay, buddy, let's put it in the kind of quick, it's-so-easy-a-3rd-grader-could-understand-it language. If personal interpretaion has no impact on the reading and understanding of the Bible- then HOW can one population of folks use the Bible to CONDEMN capital punishment and another whole population use it to SUPPORT capital punishment??? If you still don't comprehend, give me a call and I can help you sound-out the big words. "

Mike wrote on Oct 11, 2007 2:58 PM:

" The overriding story of the new testament is this: Accept Jesus Christ into your heart and you will be saved. I don't recall the disclaimer that said: unless you are . . . . "

Shhhhhh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 2:08 PM:

" 200 + comments and the conversation has deteriorated into Bible bashing and chest thumping. Time to put this to bed. No one is going to change anyone's mind here. "

To: Dear: wrote on Oct 11, 2007 12:43 PM:

" I think Oh Brother answered well. What do you not understand? If you want a more specific answer, then try to present a more specific question. Give examples. On Oh Brothers’ mention of twisted interpretations (that says good is bad, and bad is good), read about Jesus’ prophesy of false prophets in the last days…Matthew 7:15-20; Matthew 24:4-15; Mark 13:14-23. "

big deal... wrote on Oct 11, 2007 12:26 PM:

" God is gay. "

Wow wrote on Oct 11, 2007 12:09 PM:

" I love how people in their comments here use intolerance to preach tolerance. The fact is that some people accept a religious view when it comes to making moral decisions about what behavior is or is not acceptable to them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, because dear reader if you were to do some introspection you might find that your own opinions are also formed from a number of different sources. For all those bible haters out there, I suggest going to pick up a Holy Koran and giving that a good read. It's not too complementary of homosexuality either. Just remember, your intolerance is not going to produce tolerance. "

J O wrote on Oct 11, 2007 11:46 AM:

" The most fierce critics of homosexuality are more often than not homosexuals. Right-wing Christian Evangelicals, for instance, are so ripe with hatred, they cannot even admit to their own gayness, for that would impart hatred on themselves. Instead, they go around waving little flags and pointing fingers at real people. "

Area Resident (who is an atheist) wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:26 AM:

" Outlawed! I think not! The bible (especially King James version) is instrumental in understanding he development of the English language. Write up there with Shakespeare and Chaucer. Some lovely prose is contained within. "

DEAR: "Oh Brother wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:01 AM:" wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:20 AM:

" I believe you went to great lengths to NOT answer the question put forth by a poster who asked your view of interpretation. Could you re-visit the question, please? And could you be specific about his exact question which listed the ever popular multiple interpretations which often lead to many very different, or two completely opposite interpretations? Your effort is appreciated in advance. Thank you. "

Your Bible is SICK, TWISTED and DISTURBING! wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:15 AM:

" Read: Numbers 31: 17-18 (promotes pedophilia and child rape) Malachi 2:3 (promotes filthy sex and rape with feces and urine) Leviticus 26: 16- 42 (discusses consumption of male seed, rape and instruction to parents to cannibalize their children) Ezekiel 23: 19-20 (I won't even go there... DISGUSTING! talk about FILTHY MINDS!) Joshua 5:2 (out of anger and distress commanded to circumsize sons a SECOND time- ie- cut it off!!!) The filthy violence and depraved perversions that are protrayed in the Bible and often carried out by Biblical HEROES far surpass the "sin" of homosexuality. This book is made up of nothing but sickening monsters and Chrsitians have the very nerve today to pretend this sick, twisted stuff isn't written in it and try to condition children to believe it's a book of love and sweet nursery-rhymes. I believe the Bible should be REMOVED from the hands of children forever, and all Christians should be tried for child abuse and the Bible be OUTLAWED! "

Oh Brother wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:01 AM:

" The subject doesn't require 'individual interpretation' that is precisely the problem. It is very plain in Hebrew and in Greek. It is not just a few verses, it is a theme throughout the Bible. Bible authors lived in the midst of Homosexuality. Nero was Caesar during Paul's time, homosexuals controlled society. He castrated his lover and married him. He was a good wife too, because the next Caesar had him for a wife also. It means just what it says, you don't have to be 'really smart' to understand it. But you do have to go to lengths to twist it to mean something different, and then it only becomes what the indiviual intended, not what God intended. Many teams of scholars have translated the passsages the same for centuries, it hasn't changed. If you don't like what it says, fine. But is means what it says. Anyone who can read can understand it. Nero didn't like what Christians said about it, in fact he burned Christians to light up his parties, pretty hateful, but he never did claim the Bible supported his lifestyle. "

In defense of Oh Brother wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:47 AM:

" God is unchanging and that's a good thing. The OT contains the laws and commands of God and it's a mistake to think that the NT negates them. Jesus came to fulfill (perfect) the laws of God. If you think about it, Jesus is God...so why would he contradict the laws that were given for man. These laws do not restrict men, but give us freedom from sin and enable us to honor God. If you want to continue your lives doing whatever you do, that is your choice; but don't twist God's Word. Yes, he is a loving God, but he has also set in place judgement for sin. One other thing, if people (whether Christian, Non-Christian, Straight, Gay, or whatever) would focus on what God thinks of you instead of what you or others think of yourself I believe there'd be a lot less confusion. "

Man on Man wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:23 AM:

" I can't believe I have wasted a few minutes reading these posts, and am now diving into the mire. None of this dibble matters. Do what you want. Don't worry about what the next guy or gal is doing. Believe what YOU want. Don't worry about what the next guy or gal believes. Believe in any God if you want or not, don't worry about whether or not the next guy or gal believes in your God. It's okay. Take care of yourself however you see fit. And don't try to impress your lifestyle whichever or however it may be on others. You'll find happiness in this I promise. "

Grip Giver wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:18 AM:

" Get it all out now! One day it will be common knowledge that it is genetic. Then hating gays will be the same thing as hating different races and gender. So blow off all of that steam while you can! "

RE: "Oh, Brother wrote on Oct 10, 2007 7:38 PM:" wrote on Oct 11, 2007 12:12 AM:

" Where do you think individual interpretation fits into it? Are you saying that you perceive and interpret each passage the same way others do? The same way other denominations, other faiths do? Do you not "get" for instance, that really smart, really good people justify their deeply believed and heartfelt arguments that it is both wrong AND right to execute a convicted criminal? And those on both sides of this particular argument could easily find extensive scripture to completely justify their point 110%. Readers of the Bible have concluded exact opposite things upon reading it for 3000 years. Do you not see this? "

Oh, Brother wrote on Oct 10, 2007 7:38 PM:

" To the one who replied to Oh, Brother: I am not trying to attract you. I am not a warm fuzzy. Neither am I trying to repel you. I am not hateful. I am just saying lets be honest about what the Bible actually says. If the Bible is true it is not loving to lie about what it says. If you don't like what it says, that's fine, but don't try to twist it to fit what you want. "

At least Al Quaida wrote on Oct 10, 2007 6:49 PM:

" doesn't demean and oppress through a fake, sugary smile and lie about their "loving intentions". They hate gays the good old fashioned way- they just execute them. "

RE: "Oh, brother. wrote on Oct 10, 2007 5:16 PM:" wrote on Oct 10, 2007 5:53 PM:

" Gosh- you seem so warm- and sweet and kind. It seems like you genuinely care. I am so attracted to that. "

Oh, brother. wrote on Oct 10, 2007 5:16 PM:

" OT: If a man also lie with mankind as lieth with a woman, both of them have commited an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them. NT: "Don't you know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not decieved neither fornicators nor idolators nor effeminate, nor homosexuals. If you want to live the homosexual lifestyle, do it. But don't say its Biblical. We all have our own paticular attractions to sin, some alcoholism, some heterosexual immorality, some pedophiles, some lying, some stealing, some anger and violence, etc. A natural tendency, or attraction doesn't make it Biblically acceptable. The Bible is completely clear on the fact that this lifestyle leads to damnation (as well as the other sinful lifestyles) and saying otherwise is not loving, but lying. "

To: TO: Please wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:54 PM:

" You're reading the wrong Bible if you think there is only one verse against homosexuality. "

To: Please wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:39 PM:

" Besides the one verse condemning homosexuality, there is the creation of male & female and the whole story of Sodom & Gomorah with Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt. Nonetheless the Bible speaks of many sins, another perhaps being drunkenness and encourages us to avoid them for our own good. Furthermore, we should try to discourage other people from these sins for their own good. But, most important is the kingdom of God, which Jesus Christ proclaimed and paid the price that we might have foregiveness of our sins! "

Regardless of your persuasian, wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:35 PM:

" God loves you, anyway. And if after reading the Bible what you take away with you is that it is ever okay to judge or condemn another, then you need to sit back down at the drawing board and read again. "Just as I am, thou wilt receive; wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve, because thy promise I believe, O Lamb of God, I come, I come." "

Private Citizen wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:15 PM:

" I'm a gay Christian who is unapologetic for both. I live life adhering to the life motto of the great Katherine Hepburn: "Never complain, never explain." "

Chris wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:00 PM:

" I guess you're right about the "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" thing not being in the bible. My mistake, it was late and I was tired...but there are many times that it's implied, like one of the most popular bible verses, John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." or Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." In response to the Fred Phelp's "God Hates Fags" crew...I was also referring to the many people who don't say it that way. Unfortunately, my roommate actually sort of subscribes that that theory...although he believes what he is doing is the Christian way. Also in response to what I said about how I'm okay being gay. I'm never okay with any sin and I pray for forgiveness, but I believe God is in control of my life and I trust Him to guide me...if that makes any sense. I'm okay with that. "

TO: Ashamed wrote on Oct 10, 2007 2:41 PM:

" AMEN!!! "

cont'd wrote on Oct 10, 2007 2:24 PM:

" there might be a little homosexual in us all. "

Ashamed wrote on Oct 10, 2007 2:17 PM:

" As a Christian I am ashamed at what many of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are writing. The God I worship is a merciful, loving inclusive God; not a God who separates and leaves people out. There are a lot of broad statements in the bible. It is unfair to pick one and use it to condemn people. In the same book of the bible where is says man shouldn't lie with another man it also says it is ok to stone your children (obviously not Ok). Remember, white privileged men wrote the bible. God is who we worship. "

I'm not saying... wrote on Oct 10, 2007 1:03 PM:

" God is gay (I'm not saying that at all.) But if Jesus Christ is God and God created ALL, Then Jesus Christ created the homosexual. "

TO: Please... wrote on Oct 10, 2007 1:02 PM:

" I have not heard that, but have often wondered about the fact that the bible we currently read was "put together" by Constantine in 300 A.D. As he was the Emperor of Rome and their biggest enemy was Greece, I've often wondered if the SINGLE VERSE against homosexuality was installed simply to demean their way of life. Something to think about. Thanks for your input. "

We are all sinners wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:36 AM:

" and God loves us. God hates sin, not the sinner. All sin is sin, sexual or otherwise. I serve a risen Savior and a loving, merciful God. His forgiveness saved my life. Everyone, gay or straight needs His forgiveness to enter His Kingdom. It is yours for the asking. "

My fellows gay peeps, wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:08 AM:

" please stop contributing to this thread. I re-visited today after a week away and the whole argument, not to mention alomst everything written by those from both sides all sounds so incredibly STUPID. Where are your manners and your dignity? All ought to be ashamed, but I'm specifically concerned about the image my gay neighbors are presenting here. Go home, get back to work and log-off this site, you're starting to do damage. "

Gosh, wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:05 AM:

" ...a whole bushel of Christians and not a single hungry lion to be found. It's a cryin' shame. "

Please, I am a questioning Christian and I have an honest question wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:55 AM:

" but I don't know for sure if this is where I can expect an honest or helpful answer from... Has anyone ever heard that the original annotated Bible contains no mention of homosexuality at all? And that it suddenly began to bear references against it after it became rumored that King James was a homosexual (King James was purportedly despised by many and presumably these mentionings purposefully placed within the Bible were meant to mock him). Am I only only one who through his travels both spiritual and secular has heard this? "

RE: "Mike wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:09 AM:" wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:50 AM:

" Well Mike- thanks for your absolutely thrilling and delightful newsy post this morning. Would you like to borrow my spell-check and perhaps my English dictionary? "

RE: "Sad wrote on Oct 10, 2007 8:53 AM:" wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:48 AM:

" Where do you get your info dude? I'm a gay guy