Pantagraph.com | News | Thousands of gun rights activists march on state hill

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

Normally wrote on Mar 13, 2008 10:38 AM:

" Not so Political is bringing out the same "blood in the streets" fear-mongering that gun nuts have presented every time the right to self defense has been proposed as a concealed carry law. Every time in thirty years they have been proven wrong, but they keep saying it, and the media keeps repeating their story without providing the facts of prior experience. All law abiding citizens have the right to self defense with a weapon and allowing them to carry a gun increases the safety of everyone but the criminals. "

WALT wrote on Mar 13, 2008 9:32 AM:

" To:LOL Liberal (:-D)(AKA Parrot) Nothing new, no facts, unsubstantiated conjecture. Every 13 seconds a defensive gun use by a law-abiding citizen to prevent a crime. The numbers have NOT been disproved. Researcher Gary Kleck was very anti-gun when he started doing his research. His intent was to provide a platform for the antis to have favorable facts at their fingertips. His own research was so overwhelmingly in favor of gun ownership that his opinion changed by 180 degrees and he became a supporter through his own research. Why don't you try it Parrot. You might see the light. "

stinger wrote on Mar 13, 2008 4:43 AM:

" to LOL LIBERAL :-D, answer me this, why is it when ever someone offers an opposing view to yours, you do not counter it but inject venomous vitriole instead? is it due to the fact that you can not counter the arguement or is it just so you can show how many big words you know? you tell us. when or IF you ever really do come up with something pertinent to share we would love to hear from you. until then please just go away. and by the way, if you are ever in a situation detrimental to your health or life and someone comes to your aid, remember this. "

Vietvet68 wrote on Mar 12, 2008 11:04 PM:

" I am amazed at LOL Liberal's incredible shortsightness and lack of information. He is simply posturing at hypotheticals with no facts to back it up. This is a classic example of being irresponsible. Of the states that have concealed carry permit systems, there have been no street shoot outs, opening fire and killing innocent civilians, or any other irresponsible acts involving concealed carry. Why? Because the folks that get the permits are responsible, stable, and law-abiding. Just as much as police officers, if not more so. The perps that murder don't have CCW's, but have guns anyway, and always will. LOL simply shows he does not trust his fellow citizens, and doesn't understand a whit about today's realities, or the 2nd Amendment, or why it was included as the 2nd most important Right in the Bill of Rights. It would seem that he would rather that he, his family and neighbors were made victims because of his fear of guns and lack of understanding.
"

Beowulf wrote on Mar 12, 2008 10:59 PM:

" I would like to thank everyone here who has presented concrete facts - not emotionally charged, SPECULATION with NO facts to back it up. Unfortunately, emotionally fueled hysterics and hand wringing get more airplay than REASONED debate. CCW does NOT stop crime. Anyone who says that is a liar and I'm sure we, in the pro-CCW movement, would appreciate it if you would stay out of it. CCW has, however, been proven to prevent, deter and reduce crime and the data from the states, where it is allowed, backs that up. Most of these incidents, lately, have taken place in "Free-Fire Zones" (formally know as "Gun Free Zones"). "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Mar 12, 2008 10:33 PM:

" Why do I always sigh when I read the posts by sigh? The old "cars are dangerous too" argument, eh? Yeh, well I suppose breathing is dangerous too, cause everyone who does will eventually stop, and then they die. Here is the subtle, technical, difficult-for-gun-nuts-to-understand difference between guns and cars; CARS SERVE AN ESSENTIAL PURPOSE OTHER THAN KILLING, GUNS DON"T!!! Now please go back to your research center (bathroom) and crap out a new line of reasoning that actually makes some sense. Sheesh! "

LDT wrote on Mar 12, 2008 4:10 PM:

" I decided to look for some concrete numbers on the percentage of people licensed in CC states. Fl does have the most permits issued, but not the highest ratio of permits to citizens. I came across an article posted on the Kentucky coalition to carry concealed website. The study was done in 2004 by the CCRKBA. The study concludes that the state with the highest percentage of carry holders is SD with 7.45% followed by Indiana @ 6.79%. PA, CT, and WA round out the top 5 and all have just above 5% of the adult population with licenses. FL was 11th on the list with only 2.72% of its population currently licensed.

Lets just use 5% as a standard though. In order to have 100 people carrying a firearm at a given location it would need to be a crowd of 2000 people. So please, stop with the 100 "nuts" all shooting at each other at McDonalds arguments. That wil lhave to be one heck of a Mickey ds to fit 2000 people in it.

"

LDT wrote on Mar 12, 2008 3:51 PM:

" I always get a laugh out of the arguments talking about when 100 conceal carry holders all draw their weapons and have a mass shootout because no one knows who started shooting.
Perhaps some folks on here need to look at the facts on how many people are actually licensed to carry.

Fl has the most permits issued of any state. The last count I saw was still under a million. Considering that FL has 18 million residents (2006 estimate US census bureau), that is slightly higher then 5% of the population. Furthermore, few of the CC holders actually carry on a regular basis. Ive read estimates that say that only 1/5 of all permit holders carry religiously. In all actuality, the chances of being in a situation that warrants deadly force, and being in it with more then 2-3 CC holders present is VERY small. "

Jarhead71 wrote on Mar 12, 2008 12:33 PM:

" Soon to be a moot issue. On March 18 the DC Gun ban law goes for US Supreme Court review. A decision, not just on DC, but on the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution's intent is fully expected. Once done, it will be a matter of record as to what the US Supreme Court weighs in on this most important US citizen right. The argument by the one Chicago female Legislator that we will have shootouts in public streets is ludicrous. Is she too old or too senile to continue in the Leftislature or what? 48 other states uphold the 2nd Amendment and there are no shootouts on Main Street or any other street. What makes her think IL is any different? Oh, that's right, she is from Chicago where they already have shootouts on street corners between gang members daily. Say, how is gun control working out for you up there Chicago? Yep, not too good is it? "

sigh wrote on Mar 12, 2008 11:15 AM:

" Funny thing is that most cops don't even have that much training. They take a course or two at the beginning of their career and then re-qualify per department standards (typically once or twice a year thereafter). Qualification usually consists of making sure they can hit a target. Not bashing cops here or anything, just most of them are not as highly trained as people believe they are. Some are of course, the ones that train more than is required or the ones on special team (SWAT, etc...). "

sigh wrote on Mar 12, 2008 11:09 AM:

" Re "LOL Liberal (:-D)" Bull... you let your kids get in a car every day and they are far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver (or in a regular accident for that matter) than to ever be in a situation where a CCW holder needs to respond to something. On top of that, a CCW holder is far more likely to help you than accidentially shoot you in such a situation. None of this "its for the children" stuff unless you have some kind of proof that CCW actually harms children, which doesn't exist. You are letting emotion and personal bias cloud your thinking. "

BigBrother wrote on Mar 12, 2008 11:06 AM:

" If you are not aware of it most establishments in CCW states have signage telling patrons they may not carry their weapon on the premises. McDonalds is one of those businesses. If you do carry on the premises you are in violation of the CCW laws and can lose your license. Those that have those licenses are very cognizant of where and when they can have their weapon on them. It s not just as simple as strapping on a shoulder holster like you see on TV and the movies. "

Bookman wrote on Mar 12, 2008 10:23 AM:

" Seems to me the 2nd Amendment mentions "the right to bear arms" not specifically "firearms." How about if we all go back to swords? At least it's a bit harder to go on a rampage and swordfights are so much more romantic ... "

sigh wrote on Mar 12, 2008 10:02 AM:

" re: "votes often" Funny, this exact same scenario happened just last year in the church shooting. Three armed church members were present when the shooter burst in, only the shooter ever got shot. I can counter hypothetical "what-if's" with actual facts any day you want. Of course there is a chance an innocent bystander or a fellow CCW'er will be shot. A study from 1994 found (sorry I don't have a newer one) that about 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000. C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws”. Independence
Institute Issue Paper. "

Meg wrote on Mar 12, 2008 9:30 AM:

" Oh yeah...and not only did this article fail to mention that IL is not one of the 48 states that allow concealed carry, but it also did not mention that currently 70 counties in IL (of 102) have passed resolutions supporting the 2nd Amendment, rejecting anti-gun legislation. McLean has yet to pass this resolution. There is a lovely county-by-county map on pro2aresolution.com. "

Meg wrote on Mar 12, 2008 9:16 AM:

" I was there in Sprinfield, and what a great sight it was! I'm getting the impression that a lot of anti-gun folks on here don't realize that IL is one of only two states that allow no form of concealed carry....the other 48 states do! So what makes IL so different that we'd have "wild west" shootouts here, when it doesn't happen anywhere else? That's a ridiculous and insulting argument. Citizens of IL deserve to protect themselves just as much as citizens of 48 other states. Get with it.
I have had the training and education allowing me to carry concealed in about 30 other states...but I can't here in my home state, where I'm most likely to need it. We need to keep our message going, friends, all the time...not just on lobby day. "

Federal Farmer wrote on Mar 12, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Can any of you anti-civil rights advocates explain why you feel we'd have shootouts involving innocent bystanders at places like McDonalds if we had Concealed Carry in IL?

This doesn't happen in the 48 states that already have Concealed Carry. Is there some defect in IL residents that makes us especially violent or stupid? Are we somehow inferior to the residents of the other 48 states? "

MacDaddy wrote on Mar 12, 2008 9:01 AM:

" I would prefer to have concealed carry laws in Illinois. I have 16 years of miltiary experience and trained to handle a firearm. I do not think we need M-16's in the streets, but a snub nosed .38 (only has 6 shots) would be a great personal weapon to carry. I have seen the CC training programs in other states and I prefer the 40 hour training course in addition to the 6 month mandatory target practice. That way both old and new gun owners would have the same training and understanding of what is required for CC. "

Federal Farmer wrote on Mar 12, 2008 8:37 AM:

aingeal wrote on Mar 12, 2008 7:46 AM:

" It’s often said that the criminals want us unarmed; we all believe this to be true for the most part. So why with all that goes on in this state with the politicians and police do we find it so hard to believe that they want us unarmed. The criminals will always want us unarmed. Guns and information will always be gripped onto. We all know it’s a lot safer for the criminals when they have a computer that say she is unarmed, and lives alone its even better when for all intent its legal for this criminal to have a gun. Hell it warms my heart to know that my sister is free to get raped any time a criminal with a SIG and a computer feels the need, and she can’t pop him at home or on the street. MORON LAW MAKERS, keep on allowing unchecked rape. "

Dave wrote on Mar 12, 2008 7:03 AM:

" The conceal and carry law would be for the person having to walk across parking garages late at night or who have to drive home on lonely roads in less than friendly areas.
Not So Political's idea of groups or people shooting it out is ridiculous.
Every place passing laws allowing citizens to arm themselves in one way or another have without fail seen a decrease in violent crimes with guns. Every place outlawing guns has seen an increase in crime, both violent and none violent. Washington DC is an example.
I personally would never carry a concealed weapon. I prefer weapons to be carried in a way so they are visible. Visible weapons will do more to stop criminals than concealed weapons. "

justaperson wrote on Mar 12, 2008 6:37 AM:

" Allrighty!!! I believe that "Not So Political" has just demonstrated that he is not qualified to manage a weapon safely in a concealed carry environment. Testing and training is mandatory to weed out people of his "caliber". "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Mar 12, 2008 6:35 AM:

" boyles55 attempts to make us feel confident in his judgment and gun handling abilities, but his thought forming and writing abilities are not confidence instilling. Sorry about being such a stickler, but my son, daughter or wife could very possibly be in that McDonalds when boyles55's gun peppers the area hoping to drop a perp and be a hero - and then three other gun nuts go off thinking boyles55 is the perp. Ketchup with those fries? "

Bluedog wrote on Mar 12, 2008 6:20 AM:

" let'em puff, let'em shoot,let'em drive fast. Just give me national health insurance, quality jobs in America, winding down of the war in Iraq, quality education, fully funded Social Security and Medicare, good roads and bridges, revolutionary means of propelling our vehicles, stabilization of the middle class, clean air and water. Lot of hot air on both sides of this issue. Trouble is it's another " wedge" issue that diverts attention and energy away from the above mentioned areas that really matter ! "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Mar 12, 2008 6:03 AM:

" A squirrel's dream come true - a mass gathering of nuts! "

boyles55 wrote on Mar 12, 2008 1:31 AM:

" maybe you shouldnt vote. ppl who are trained to CCW know not to just start shooting everywhere. They now if there in mcdonalds and a guy comes in and say this is a robbery there not going to shoot the cashier DUH! IM very supported of CCW to protect me and my wife and family. "

Not so Political wrote on Mar 12, 2008 12:08 AM:

" If I am near a group of people shotting and I have a gun someone is going to get hurt and it will not be me. I will just start shooting at anyone whom is pulling out guns. I am not going to be able to tell who is he bad guy. Maybe the law sould also say that all bad guys have to wear a shirt that says I am the bad guy so shoot at me not the other people. There is going to be a lot of blood on the streets with out gun control. It is going to look like the old west on the movies. "

Zeva wrote on Mar 11, 2008 11:45 PM:

" Ahh..the power of masses! I say go for it, the criminals carry now and law abiding citizens are out numbered. If needed, use it, if not don't even think about it. Everyone should be mandated to take a gun course for safety if they pass it. As for "mr. hairspray" he has body guards so what does he care if people are killed needlessly. Even the numbers and I'll bet crime goes down. A complete and thorough background check should be done before anyone is allowed to CC. A medical and mental background should also be checked, to ensure safety. "

formerlyBN wrote on Mar 11, 2008 8:43 PM:

" I live in PA now where CCW is legal and I carry every day.
It is a huge responsibility and one that cannot be understated. Training should indeed be mandatory when/if, Illinios gets around to passing a CCW law.
That said, to the logic of restricting conceal and carry....
I don't see criminals standing in line to apply for the permits. None of the perpetrators of any of the mass shootings of late have had such permits.
Apparently only law-abiding citizens have to fight to be allowed to defend themselves.
"

Annie Oakley wrote on Mar 11, 2008 8:19 PM:

" conceal and carry! very cool. i am a single woman. with all the crimes against women it is needed. how many attacks on women would not happen on our streets? i am happy i do not live in chicago where rapes, purse snatchers, theives and all kinds of crimes against women go on. i for one would love to get a conceal carry. heck, the criminals conceal and carry all the time. they get away with it too. but i guess that is ok for some people. law abiding citizens shouldn't be the ones who are restricted. it is the criminals who really give guns a bad name. guns are awesome. "

votes often wrote on Mar 11, 2008 7:53 PM:

" So, when your fantasy of conceal and carry comes down and there is one bad guy and three conceal and carry good guys - in the midst of it all - who is the bad guy - or do you just shoot at the gunsel who fired off the last round? "

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