Pantagraph.com | Letters | Wrong is wrong even if 'good guys' do it

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

Anchor wrote on Mar 28, 2008 8:44 PM:

" Randy, the only thing I am ashamed of is that you call yourself and American. There is so much wrong with what you wrote, the only thing I can say is, "read a book every once in a while". "

The Cat wrote on Mar 28, 2008 12:07 PM:

" Filenet Guy: I find McManic’s condemnation of US interrogation techniques (“waterboarding” in particular) and prisoner handling in general very curious in light of his soft treatment of the current Vietnamese régime and early push for “normalization” of relations with them. If McManic was tortured and mistreated as alleged then he should have been pushing for action against his jailers since they were in violation of the Geneva Convention and rules of war. This is even truer considering the involvement of both Russian and Chinese in the interrogation and treatment of US captives in North Vietnam and his reluctance to follow up on both mistreatment of fellow prisoners and missing captives know to be in NVA hands . He also has not called for halting “waterboarding” as a training technique used on US personnel. To date the only “waterboarding” that has been confirmed are three high value terrorist scumbags, including the mastermind of 9/11, none of whom deserve any pity or humane consideration. Unfortunately, McManaic has a greater reputation as a “national security expert” than he deserves. "

filenet guy wrote on Mar 28, 2008 12:22 AM:

" Here's what the John McCain has to say about one form of torture we currently condone (Iowa, Dordt college, November, 2007):

“Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot and being used on Buddhist monks as we speak,” said McCain after a campaign stop at Dordt College here.

“People who have worn the uniform and had the experience know that this is a terrible and odious practice and should never be condoned in the U.S. We are a better nation than that.”
"

The Cat wrote on Mar 27, 2008 10:04 PM:

" “Patriot” (NOT): What I like about you alleged “progressives” is when you aren’t winning the argument you change the subject with another incoherent, totally unrelated issue. Spitzer was an arrogant, vindictive sleezeball of the “usual don’t do what I do but do what I say” liberal Dem mold. As NYAG he more often than not used threats and character assassination rather than real legal proceedings to shakedown marks and make his “name” as a prosecutor. He was up to his slimy rectum in several scandals as governor and wasn’t particularly liked by even the Dems in NY. Ironically his replacement appears to have even more baggage than Old Number 9 indicating the state of the Democrat Party in NY. Of course you managed to allude to a nonexistent Bush scandal with the mortgage meltdown that is your usual “Bush is responsible for milk turning sour, hiccups, hairballs, tornados, etc) nonsense. Again, what has this excrement have to do with the subject of the letter? "

katanauser wrote on Mar 27, 2008 4:54 PM:

" How many rules of war did the terrorists abide by on 9-11? None. How many have died from your imaginary torture scenarios? None. How many lives of fellow citizens have been saved? Considerable! You are an idiot. So I'll make this simple. Listen up d-bags...

We are at war. There is only 1 rule that matters in a war. That is WIN it. Since you don't understand the distinction, Al-Qaeda is not a government, ergo cannot be a signatory of ANY treaty pertaining to war. AND that Al_Quaeda does not believe in your rules EITHER, and has no intent of being hindered by you, it comes down to this, more of our folks die when we play by your stupid rules. That is a BAD thing!

Your continual carping about your odd ethical beliefs and your misperceptions of right and wrong will help prolong what fighting we still have to do, continue to embolden our enemies and get more of our friends and loved ones killed.

If that happens then YOU will be wrong wrong wrong... and should be held responsible for your vacuous ideology. I hope you will be.
"

Patriot wrote on Mar 27, 2008 12:51 PM:

" Well said, Redbeard. The Bush cartel must enjoy death and destruction, two terrible traits that any caring human would abhor. The reason why Spitzer was politically assasinated by the Bush Administration was becasue he fingered them as the main source of the mortgage failures that have cost over a million people their homes. It was a letter in the Washington Post about a month ago, so the Bush crooks had to retaliate immediately so people wouldn't pay any attention to their criminal activities as usual. For you Bush supporters, go read it in the Post or watch it on YouTube. And, yeah, Clinton's a crook too, but he's not in charge now, is he. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Mar 27, 2008 8:57 AM:

" Shadow wrote on Mar 26, 2008 8:28 AM:

" The problem isn't Islam, it is religion in general. This is a war between Christianity and Islam. Neither brand of zealot is better than the other. Both are buffoons, fighting on behalf some diety that either does not exist, or does exist but doesnt care enough about any of you to bother showing you he exists. "

Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of men? This Shadow DOESN'T. The war is about being attacked by murderers who are using Islam as an excuse. This war is about fighting back to save innocent people of any belief or disbelief from slaughter and to help them live in freedom. Sometimes being "bad" is needed to accomplish the greater "good."

This isn't a school playground squabble. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Mar 27, 2008 8:43 AM:

" Senator McCain will know how to treat prisoners of war, having been "there" for 6 years or so. We can bet he won't be ordering them to be beheaded slowly with a dull butcher knife. We can bet he won't be supporting kidnap and slaughter teams. I think he'll solve some of that Guantanamo problem but I doubt he'll coddle our true enemies and their accomplices. So much has been made of WMD's by the more staunchly antiwar because if their definition of the word. To me weapons of mass destruction don't have to be nuclear bombs. Scud missiles are WMD's. Any weapon that knocks down a building or scatters human body parts in a crowded market is wmd. But, then, whatever pops your cork in calling us the bad guys. After 9-11, nearly all of us said, "no more nice guy" and went after them. Now, look. This is not a time to peck around the chicken yard. War is not for the squeemish. Good guys lose wars. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 26, 2008 9:53 PM:

" The Cats: Still living in an alternative universe I see and getting you “facts” from the Daily Chaos and Bluffington Post. Carter withdrew support from the Shah (not Shaw), forced him to abdicate, and arranged for France to return the Ayatollah to Iran. The sanctions instead of working were being abused by the UN and Saddam in the Food for Peace debacle, Iraq was still harassing coalition aircraft enforcing the no fly zone, Saddam was still going after opposition groups, and the inspectors were kicked out without the required WMD disarmament verification. Some WMDs were found and the rest went to Syria. You sort of left out the fact that Regan (and Carter also to a limited degree) armed the Afgans because the USSR had invaded and were on their way to Pakistan once they took Afghanistan. Bush did go after OBL and his boys; it’s just that he went after them where they were in Afghanistan and suckered the rest into Iraq. You’re stuck in your usual deep, deep rut little “progressive”. "

The Cats wrote on Mar 26, 2008 11:07 AM:

" To The Cat...nice post. Blame Carter now...where is the Clinton blame you usually assess? The Shaw was deposed by his own people, Carter had nothing to do with it but then you never let facts interfere with your rants. The sanctions against Iraq worked just fine as is evidenced by no WMD's (the basis our Liar In Chief used for his preemptive war against them) nor any chemical or nuclear materials found. Regan armed the Afghans (thanks yet again to another failed republican president). The 9-11 attackers and OBL are Saudis so why didn't "boy George" go after them? I would think being humiliated again and again on these pages would cause you to listen rather than post but you seem to have no shame and certainly limited knowledge of historical facts.. "

Shadow wrote on Mar 26, 2008 8:28 AM:

" The problem isn't Islam, it is religion in general. This is a war between Christianity and Islam. Neither brand of zealot is better than the other. Both are buffoons, fighting on behalf some diety that either does not exist, or does exist but doesnt care enough about any of you to bother showing you he exists. "

Santo Fan wrote on Mar 25, 2008 11:00 PM:

" Well said Randy. Bush and Cheney have abused this country and they did it in a fashion that resembles the Soviet Union. And along the way, they pulled terms like freedom over the eyes of their sheep. "

gatorbait wrote on Mar 24, 2008 11:41 AM:

" unfortunately, our governments actions are nothing new. we've been torturing, experimenting with drugs on our own people, and murdering since the Cold War. just read the story on Frank Olson who "fell" out of a hotel window in 1953. 20 years later, his family was awarded $750,000 after it was determined that our CIA showed a complete disregard for human life. but we only get one side of the story most of the time...and that is that we are always the good guys that do all the right things. i love this country, but the governments actions are unacceptable. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Mar 23, 2008 12:21 PM:

" What do the enemy do with their captives? "

twincities wrote on Mar 22, 2008 8:51 PM:

" middleoftheroad: well put. i wish these boards were not modded so i could tell denise74 what i really think of her "theories" "

middle of the road wrote on Mar 21, 2008 11:05 AM:

" to denise74
the constitution protects our right to speak out about what we disagree with. If you have a problem with that. Then maybe you are the one that should leave. there are plenty of countrys in the world that do not allow it. You should fit right in. "

JimmyChooGirl wrote on Mar 20, 2008 1:48 PM:

" Only in America - I think you are right about the President having more information and knowing more than the average person could ever understand. Like knowing about threats on the Twin Towers (and not doing anything). Knowing his family's oil business has relations with Bin Ladens family's business. And I sure as heck hope he knows why we went to Iraq (and why we're still there) because I thought it was Bin Laden and the Taliban that made the attacks on the U.S.

Hmmm..... "

The Cat wrote on Mar 20, 2008 12:48 PM:

" Readbeard: The 9/11 islamic suicide hijackers were all educated men with many having technical degrees or sufficient backgrounds for flight school. OBL comes from a family with multi-millions. The London bombers had economic opportunities and part of group picked up after the recent Heathrow attack were doctors. Brittany CDs were not exactly big selling items under the Taliban or the Iranian mullahs. As to “peaceful” approaches, none of the options tried on Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War appeared to work since there were crackdowns on the Kurds and Shiites, constant attacks on US aircraft, Food For Peace shenanigans, and stonewalling on ceasefire dictated disarmament requirements. The problem with Afghanistan is safe havens in Pakistan and Iran. Since Pakistan is in turmoil (as always) and Iran has been hostile since Jimmy the Creep decided the Shah was bad on “human rights” but the Ayatollah was a “progressive’, there isn’t much we can do now about that problem. As to “economic solutions”, most countries in the region have oil so there is potential wealth in the area. "

Redbeard wrote on Mar 20, 2008 11:35 AM:

" To the Cat: Yes, I agree that those who bombed the WTC etc. are/were a threat, and I supported going after them in Afghanistan and bringing Osama to justice. It would have been nice if we had actually finished those jobs instead of detouring to Iraq and blundering into an intricate maze of local conflicts (and actually increased the standing/power of Iran in the region). There are much better ways that we could have handled Iraq without going to war there and taking our eye off the ball regarding terrorism.

War isn't always the answer. We're much stronger when we use our economic power. When people want to buy iPods and HD TVs and Britney CDs, then they're less likely to be seduced by the religious extremists who recruit them for suicide bombing and other atrocities. But when their family is dead and they live in a bomb crater, they're ripe for picking. Economic power isn't always the answer, either, but it is one of the options that should always be preferred over getting into a situation of being a military occupier in a country. "

vzbb wrote on Mar 20, 2008 11:21 AM:

" Perfectly said. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 19, 2008 8:48 PM:

" Redbeard: I sure never accepted Bubba Clinton’s illegal and counterproductive Balkan adventures. But you must admit the islamic nut jobs that twice attacked the WTC, bombed London transit facilities, bombed Spanish trains, bombed Bali tourist spots, etc sure are a threat. Even today OBL (allegedly the Big Boy according to al-Qaeda) is calling for violence throughout Europe because someone is “dissing” his homeboy Mohammad with cartoons and otherwise trashing his “faith”. It is also possible to be a Christian and kill others particularly when they are eager to kill you because of your religion. Fortunately quite a few islamic nut jobs have been dispatched to “paradise” (hopefully with whatever number of hairy male virgins their holy text requires) in both Iraq and Afghanistan. By the way, gathering intelligence from non-US personnel in foreign countries and how they are treated when captured are the issues of the letter by Randy not domestic spying on US citizens. "

Redbeard wrote on Mar 19, 2008 6:12 PM:

" It is extremely insulting when people claim that the only way to love your country and respect the sacrifice of those in the military is to blindly accept all wars and whatever the commander-in-chief says. That is not patriotism; it is an abdication of your responsibility as a U.S. citizen. It is quite possible to desire the safety of the American people and yet firmly and rationally believe that war is not always the best way to accomplish it. It is quite possible to admire the sacrifice of our heroes in uniform while decrying those instances when they are badly used in poorly-planned wars fought for the wrong reason. It is quite possible to desire all the information our government intelligence needs, and yet oppose spying on American citizens without some kind of accountability.

It is also actually quite possible to be a Christian and oppose the taking of human life. "

JustMyThoughts wrote on Mar 19, 2008 4:12 PM:

" Strong beliefs can be typed easily, but if they truly are beliefs they can and also should be spoken, it is your freedom of speech granted you by the centuries of patriots that paid the price of that freemdom with their lives.

Now, if these are true beliefs of yours, speak them aloud! Speak your "truth" at ground zero. Speak your "truth" at a surivivors reunion at Pearl. Go down to the local VFW and give a lecture. When the next group of our heroes returns from overseas, convince them of your visions at the airport.

How soon we forget. ON THE DAY OF 9/11, when you watched the towers fall, what steps would you have gladly taken to prevent that catastrophe? When we saw the pentagon in flames and smoke, another flight flown into the ground... Did you post that day, glad that we did not cross your "line"? "

hillbilly wrote on Mar 19, 2008 1:32 PM:

" i'm sure by your post,you would rather ridicule and poke fun.very unbecoming of someonewho's fancies themself of verbally and grammatically supierior. isee it as smoke creens,you miss the ENTIRE point of my post.but hey according to you,i'm an illiterate,drop out.i didnt miss the point of your post,and if you are a teacher,if you have children, i feel sorry for them. you spread hate,bigotry,worst of all, poisining their minds with dribble,dribble that says,make fun of someone,that way you dont have to listen to them. i REALLY feel sorry for youand people like you. maybe you should try to look past what a person wears,how they talk, how they look,and see them as person equal to yourself. but then that would be hard for you. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 19, 2008 1:31 PM:

" LOL Loony (D:): Dwarf brought up the issue of Christian morals; all I did was point out that the islamic nut cases were not operating by that set of morals but whatever their “religion” considers justifications for their actions. Since you consider yourself “liberal”, perhaps I should remind you again that they consider anyone not “islamic” (and many who are) to be heretics, targets, and subject to whatever the islamic nut cases desire to do to them.
"

hillbilly wrote on Mar 19, 2008 1:23 PM:

" to es....no my grammer is not the the greatest,yes i passed writing and graduated high school. typing aint so good like that grammer??..to bad someone of your obvious intellect chooses to pick an grammer,then resort to name calling. if thats "higher" learning..you my friend can have it. as for thanking my teacher for teaching to read.....nope wrong again..my dad taught me...at age 3...mabye my grammer is not what you think it should be,typing skills su..cks.but really stick to points. stay away from name calling,doesnt fit for someone of "higher" intelligence,which you obviously think you have.as for teaching,and the nea, my turn to guess,your a teacher. togh job,especially today. but the real point is,when our crazy congress allowed a minority to take God,and prayer out of schools,THAT was EXACTLY when the nea jumped on board. that is when TEACHERS should have jumped on board...they didnt.you see my friend doesnt it strike you as funny,being of supreme intelligence,we can swear to God in court,enter the hallow walls of congress,and start the sessions by praying,put "in God we trust on our money,mention God in our constitution,.then hypocritically, tell our children it is "wrong" to pray,and make it illegal? "

The Cat wrote on Mar 19, 2008 1:19 PM:

" Dwarf: My post was in response to your 3/18/08 11:47 AM post and The Cats’ 3/18/08 12:06 PM post (that is NOT my post but some clown who likes to confuse the issues). Since this thread was a discussion on "torture" and wiretapping of FOREIGN terror suspects your reference to Quakers and students in the US does not apply and appears to be reaching to try to prove your points. I seem to have missed the stories of waterboarding of Quakers or wire-tapping of students’ data communications without warrants. Your whole post reeks of paranoia. The issue, once again, is intelligence gathering from FOREIGN sources and the legal fictions trying to be fostered by the “progressives” to hinder this administration from performing its’ constitutional functions to secure the safety of the country. Once again, these intelligence targets are NOT Americans nor on US soil and NOT COVERED by the Constitution or laws emanating from Constitutional guarantees. The last half of my post was directed at The Cats comments if you can read it correctly. "

Denise74 wrote on Mar 19, 2008 9:16 AM:

" The Cat has more Christian valus than you will ever understand. We are told vfery clearly that there will be wars and rumors of war so who are we to pretend that wars should not happen. I am truely greatful for our military for serving to protect our Country and our way of life. I rise up every morning and wake up my beautiful daughter to get her ready for school so she can prepare for college and become anything she wants to be when she grows up and none of that would be possible were it not for our military of past and present. I am thankful to have a prayerful president who did not rush into battle, but prayerfully considered it and went in knowing and telling us all, it would be a long battle but it must be fought now so the front lines don't end up at your front door. If you don't like our country and our government you are FREE to leave it at any time!!! "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Mar 18, 2008 10:29 PM:

" I have news for The Cat - your morals are not Christian morals. Calling yourself Christian does not make it so. You might want to try practicing it. "

packfan92 wrote on Mar 18, 2008 9:24 PM:

" Randy- Have to agree with you here. It's awful to what we do to those prisoners. I know what the terriosists have done to us and it is terrible, but its awful bad to torture people. It's time for america to try to act like we are police men to the world when really our techniques are just as bad as everyone else. So lets either stop acting like we are the good guys or change our ways. "

gwreck wrote on Mar 18, 2008 5:46 PM:

" To Paladin: People like you really confuse me. Deep down you hate this country and why people with your mindset even remain is such a ruthless, capitalistic, narcississtic country bewilders me. You have never in your life stood up for anything of substance, much less defended something with anything other than words. People like you really make me appreciate that their are those of us who make sacrafices in order to make this great country what it is. Sure we have our flaws, but when you consider we are the new kids on the block in the world; at times we experience growing pains. War is something you could never fathom because you lack the courage to make a committment to anything other than your recliner and your keyboard. "

Paladin wrote on Mar 18, 2008 3:18 PM:

" ...duh...me like freedom. You no like me, you no like freedom. Long may it waive. Seriously, folks, who is so dumb as to fall for this "fight for freedom" hoo-ey? We fight for our National (Business / Economic) Interests. We always have, we always will. Doll it up with religion or morality or whatever, but thems is the facts, folks. Now, our economy is based upon petroleum products (ever think about all the things we use plastic for?). Someday, soon (in Geological time, anyway), we're gonna be back to the ol' "food and fresh water" wars. Population density. It's a kick in the pants. But for now, it's oil, and economic control, and avoiding recessions, depressions, and South Sea Bubbles... Gee, we've had it good for lots of years. Guess what comes next? "

dwarf wrote on Mar 18, 2008 3:01 PM:

" OK, Cat, you've wandered so far afield I now have no idea where you're going. You're no longer addressing me - unless you know all those things about me, which you quite seriously don't.

We also weren't talking about the Clinton administration, though you giddily assume I would have agreed with everything he ever did. You base this on ... well, nothing in particular I can see.

If you don't believe we can live in a better world than this one, you surely never will. Me, I'll stick with believing that there's a difference between good and evil, and that you don't need to be the bad guy to beat the bad guys. It's a radical idea, I know, but what you'd call naive is - in reality - both patriotic and courageous. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 18, 2008 1:34 PM:

" Dwarf and The Cats (cute distraction using that name): The only “threat” you seem to “see” is the US government when there is no “progressive” (Democrat?) administration in power. There appears to be a touch of paranoia in Dwarf’s focus on surveillance of Quakers and college students (suddenly interjected in the discussion) when we have been dealing with foreign intelligence gathering. There did not seem to be such “concern” by the “progressives” when the Clinton Gang was busy tearing the honor, security, and laws of the country apart for their pleasures. Their malfeasance and incompetence got us into the situation with terror strikes like 9/11. As to The Cats’ declaration of war, who are we going to declare war on and why was that never an issue in intelligence collection when dealing with the Balkans, Korea, Vietnam, and other non-declared wars? I have addressed the Geneva Conventions non-relevance and the faults of FISA in other posts. You people are so “non-judgmental” unless you are dealing with those trying to protect you. "

mixdown wrote on Mar 18, 2008 1:33 PM:

" It's amazing how unappreciative some people are of freedom. Ironically, in a lot of nations you could be put to death for your letter. And you need to study history a little better. I've said it before, and now again: By war was this nation made, and by war it is maintained. Oh, and I served in the military, so I have every right to say that. So while you go about your life of entitlement, please remember the means by which you are able to go about your life in that way. "

The Cats wrote on Mar 18, 2008 12:06 PM:

" As always "The Cat" weighs in with the radical right's version of the world. A declaration of war differentiates this conflict with WWII and the eves dropping on the Japanese. He conveniently ignores The Geneva Conventions in his rant attempting to justify our illegal detentiona nd tortue of prisoners. The government had the ability to listen to any call, read any email, etc. before FISA. They had a rubber stamp court (99.1% of the time the request was approved and they could start the tap before the approval...3 day "grace period"). To our Liar In Chief that wasn't enough. This administration has coused us more harm than any in history. We lost our moral compass and have yet to get it back. Give me a "progressive" over a "regressive" any day. The proof that Boy George is on the wrong path is clear in his approval ratings. The Cat joins the 30% or so of the public that supports this failed administration. "

Paladin wrote on Mar 18, 2008 12:01 PM:

" ...uh, if you think we were a "City on a Hill" under Reagan, keep on dreaming. We haven't been so unpopular overseas until recently. Come to think of it, we aren't even as unpopular in Europe NOW as we were THEN. People are resigned to our stupid choices in leaders, I guess... By the way, "the world" didn't change on 9/11. Some people (and, no, I am NOT talking about the dead or injured) got introduced to the fact that terror is something that can effect anyone, but it had a much greater effect on mom and pop taxpayer on this side of the water than on the rest of the world. Lots of folks were only surprised that it took so long for someone to take advantage of the state of our internal defense mechanisms, which everyone has known about for decades. We have, actually, foiled a FEW biological attempts (one during Clinton, even WITH Reno), in spite of ourselves. It has only been a matter of time until someone succeeded, and they did it by crashing airplanes. Crude, but effective. Surprise... "

dwarf wrote on Mar 18, 2008 11:47 AM:

" Once again, you're trying to assert I don't see a threat. I see plenty of threat - there are scary, dangerous people out there. Some of them want to kill us.

There's a broader view (which you charmingly characterize as naive) which notes that - yes, there's scary people out there we need to worry about, but while we're doing that we shouldn't ignore what's being done to our own country by our own leadership. You call it naive, I call it sensible. In fact, I'd say it's pretty naive to trust that an excessively secretive government - known for cover-ups and politically-motivated scandals - only has its citizenry's best interests at heart. It takes a true patriot to stand up and say that the terrorists' are wrong - but so, sometimes, are the governments'

Have you been living under a rock in regards to domestic surveillance? Or are you naively assuming that said domestic surveillance is only being used on bad guys rather than against such traitors as anti-war Quakers and college students... "

Tony S. wrote on Mar 18, 2008 10:30 AM:

" Remember the description of our country by Ronald Reagan as the light at the top of the hill? We were looked up to. Bush, Cheney, Rice-a-phony, Rove, Wolfowitz, Gonzales, etc. have snuffed the light out and replaced Hope with Fear. Thanks for nothing! "

The Cat wrote on Mar 18, 2008 9:36 AM:

" Dwarf: You brought up the subject of teaching our kids the end justifies the means; I only pointed out that we do that in schools today when it comes to “progressive” ideas. As to problem being the terrorists causing us “terror”, hot flash, they are causing death to US citizens and those of other countries. That may not be a big problem to you with your naive worldview but many others do consider that a real threat. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 18, 2008 9:25 AM:

" Dwarf: You keep insisting that these techniques are violating the rights of Americans when we are talking about foreign nationals operating outside the US and NOT SUBJECT to Constitutional guarantees. We are not violating any law as we gather foreign intelligence leads. These people (vague groups that they may be) are often fleeting targets for intelligence and are using technology (like disposable cell phones and the Web) that was not envisioned in the original FISA law. FISA is of dubious legality and has been made more so with technical advances like WWW routings. It is like having to get a warrant to eavesdrop on Japanese radio transmissions during WW2 (after we cracked their code) whenever we needed to find out their next move in the Pacific because the eavesdropping station was in Hawaii. As to whether this struggle is a “war”, attacks on civilian targets in the US (and other countries), attacks on embassies, attacks on civilian targets like airliners and cruise ships, and attacks on US military targets in neutral countries sure smell like a war. "

dwarf wrote on Mar 18, 2008 8:24 AM:

" As to the last - stop changing the topic. I get that you don't like sex education and diversity education, and want to postulate they're an example of the ends justifying the means, but that's a whole 'nother debate. We're not talking about that - we're talking about wiretaps and torture. Get done with this and then we can talk about that other stuff. "

dwarf wrote on Mar 18, 2008 8:22 AM:

" Why would you assume I'd be happy with warrantless wiretapping under any presidency? I don't care if it was a Clinton or a Bush, it's a violation of Americans' constitutional rights.

I did give you the alternative, but you glossed over it - *work within the law.* Get warrants for those wiretaps, allow lawyers for those imprisoned. It's really not tough.

Calling counter-terrorism activities a "war" is stretching, even though it's in vogue. By calling it a war - even though you're not declaring war on any fixed body of people, nation, or even religion - you're seeking to justify the means used to pursue it. It's no more a war than the war on "drugs"; it's a war on an ephemeral concept or phenomenon rather than a nation.

The truth is that we've let the terrorists cause us terror. And once we're scared, anything goes! (First among these - constitutional rights!)

(continued) "

ktlin wrote on Mar 18, 2008 7:47 AM:

" I assume your teacher explained what torture was??? That is the sticking point. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 9:24 PM:

" Dwarf: Warrantless wiretapping as well as warrantless searches for intelligence purposes were both done extensively under Clinton and Carter as well as warrantless eavesdropping on political opponents and illegal use of FBI files by the Clintons. Project Echelon was also used illegally by Clinton to gather data on industrial secrets from foreign sources among other questionable activities. Were you as upset about those as you are about foreign intelligence operations today? The use of these techniques against political opponents was real abuse of the Constitution against US citizens for craven political power. The issue is: these means are legal in a war setting against foreign sources on foreign soil. but you stubbornly fail to recognize the fact. I am still waiting for your “moral” intelligence-gathering plan since you are so bothered by what is now being done. By the way, we sure teach our kids the ends justify the means and moral relativism when it comes to such areas as sex and diversity in school. "

dwarf wrote on Mar 17, 2008 8:31 PM:

" So, in other words, Cat, you're agreeing that the end justifies the means? Let's start teaching that to our kids.

I mean, what the heck does it matter that an enemy has a different set of values? Of course they do - that's part of what makes them an enemy. By letting an enemy dictate what values you should have, you're surrendering the point to them.

You can try to pretend there are no legal means to gather intelligence, but I think you know that's not true. Last I checked, we still had laws in this country. Ignoring them isn't heroic or brave; it's destructive and self-defeating. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 8:15 PM:

" To: “middle of the road”. To clear up your confusion the Geneva Convention IS NOT applied to illegal combatants that include spies, terrorists and criminal gangs, those who do not fight with uniforms or identifying insignia, and those who do not observe the laws and customs of war What ports were blockaded and when? There actually was a deal in April 1999 with the Taliban as part of an oil pipeline from Turkmenistan and Pakistan but strife and money problems prevented any actual work. Where is your source for the post 9/11 OBL/pipeline deal? "

dwarf wrote on Mar 17, 2008 7:01 PM:

" Hillbilly and BigBrother - Again, you're creating a false dichotomy. It's not "Allow illegal wiretaps and torture, or the terrorists will kill all of us." You want it to be, but it's not. You want this to be just us vs. them - and to some extent it is - but it's also us vs. ourselves.

We're compromising our national soul - the principles this country stands for, and that we as citizens and patriots should care deeply about. You really don't get it at all - by illegally wiretapping our citizens, by engaging in torture and other atrocities, by ignoring habeas corpus - we're surrendering. We're saying "Okay, Terrorists! You win! We're scared of you! We're so scared that we'll even hurt our own populace - so you don't have to!"

Stop being weak. Be strong and stand up for yourself and stop cowering behind torture and the terrorists' own methods. Say, "This way is awful. Keep us safe, but do it morally and legally." You've been conned into thinking it's not possible, and that's just sad. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 6:54 PM:

" Dwarf: This enemy has a vastly different set of “morals” than Christianity. If you study history you will find that is frequently true as it was with the Japanese in WW2. Suicide by being stupid and applying “principles” in a war with the unprincipled is not realistic. Following that logic we would not have used atomic weapons to end WW2 but would have incurred more US and Japanese deaths. Where does the Constitutional and Declaration of Independence apply to aliens in foreign countries who are using terror tactics coupled with a suicide mindset? I only asked what was your approach to intelligence gathering by “moral” means (your issue) for which you appear to have no answer. Remember we got here in part with “moral” politicians of the “progressive” mindset that forbad using agents “tainted” with any moral failings as CIA operatives and imposed convoluted “guarantees” and “processes” to make sure no one’s “rights” were abridged. Where these legalistic “high” moral principles have been applied it has served to encourage terrorists and let them walk away due to “legal” technicalities. "

ES wrote on Mar 17, 2008 6:30 PM:

" Hillbilly (you are correctly named by your posts) to blame teachers and the NEA for Randy's view is the type of paranoia that found us in trouble. If you can read and write, pal, thank a teacher. Oh and by your posts, one can tell that your grammar class skills are lacking. You must have either flunked or bearly passed any writing course. And the last I checked, Hillbilly, it is illegal to teach prayer in school. That of course, as we all know, is the fault of the NEA. Think for yourself, not the blather you hear on Fix Noise. What a sad product of the education system you are. I bet you dropped out. "

middle of the road wrote on Mar 17, 2008 5:45 PM:

" Cat you are completely confused. The Taliban did offer up Bin laden. Pre 9- 11 US oil interests had been negotiating with them to put a pipeline through Afghanistan. they would not allow it with out some percentage of ownership. IE. they want to make money on the oil shipped through their country. This pipeline is to buy oil from the former soviet block and sell it to China. Post 9-11 they agreed to deliver Bin laden if they could have part ownership in the pipeline. we said no deal.
We have blockaded ports in the middle east pre 9-11. By international maritime
law blockading a port is an act of war.
The Geneva convention is to by applied anytime and every time you declare war. "

Redbeard wrote on Mar 17, 2008 5:30 PM:

" Cavewoman: The things you talk about are individual acts and morality. There are plenty of moral failings in each of us as individuals. What Randy is talking about is the morality of a society. There is the morality of a country and it has nothing to do with sex or tax evasion or bribes. It has to do with the example that we set to the rest of the world as a country, not as flawed individuals. That is a moral virtue envisioned by our founders. Sentiments that have been expressed here, including torture, killing all who oppose us and denying human dignity and rights are not compatible with America's moral virtue.

This is a country of the people and by the people. As a citizen, I have a responsibility to make sure that my country is moral. I don't have a responsibility as to whether Elliott Spitzer is moral. That's between him and his God/family. "

BigBrother wrote on Mar 17, 2008 5:20 PM:

" I certainly hope that none of the posters here are at a sporting event like the cubs vs cardinal series when the terrorists decide to strike at Americas heartland. A crop duster pulling a banner stating "thanks for not interigating me"! Then opens up the dusting jets and douses the croud with ricin or anthrax. Terrorists do not care about military targets, they do not care about the Geneva Convention, they seek only to kill innocent Americans and its allies. Islamic terrorists would sit at your table and eat your dinner waiting for you to go to sleep so they can slit your throats. How many innocent Iraq citizens have dies at the hands of Islamic terrorist suicide bombers? If you do not wake up and see the truth you may not wake up at all!!! "

hillbilly wrote on Mar 17, 2008 4:37 PM:

" 2 DWARF...funny you bring up the christian right..typical smokescreen for the truth..this nation has fought to gain its independence from britain,at great cost. do you honestly think there was no torture on britains part,on our part? war IS hell,and it has no room for people like you or your kind.if you had your way we would let these spineless ,faceless murderers bring more of what happened on 9/11 back to our homes.dont you people get it these people,and i use people lightly,have ABSOLUTELY no regard for your "rights", let alone the innocent people they kill and mame everyday ALL over this globe.what is it going to take to wake folks like you up? AGAIN what is the right thing?? they care nothing foryour"rights".to them you are an infedel,and you and your infedel family are worth nothing but death. i for one love this countryand would do anything to protect it....ANYTHING........would you? "

Cavewoman wrote on Mar 17, 2008 4:02 PM:

" Randy, So glad we agree that wrong is wrong. Then we should also agree that infidelity (Clinton), money laundering (Spitzer), lying (Obama), abortion (NOW) and homosexuality (Craig) are wrong, too. Doesn't matter who the "good" people are who do or promote the behavior, right? "

dwarf wrote on Mar 17, 2008 3:43 PM:

" You know, this is nuts.

I would have thought the Christian Right of all groups would understand that it's important to behave in moral ways, to love your neighbor, and to avoid evil and illegal actions. I mean, in church I was taught that the end doesn't justify the means. What ever happened to that?

I also think it's cute that you want me, personally, to come up with a plan to defend America when that's not what this is about. It's what you might WANT it to be about, but it isn't. It's about morals - right, wrong, and defending the liberty and principles upon which this country was founded. It's patriotism, though I'm sure you would hate to admit it.

I love this country. I love the principles it - in theory - stands for. You know, the Constitution? The Declaration of Independence? It breaks my heart to see the nation like this.

You'd destroy this country to save it, and that's very sad. You've already surrendered to the terrorists by letting them terrorize you. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 3:24 PM:

" To: hillbilly. Facts and rational arguments never get in the way of the "progressive's" delusions that is why they never answer questions. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 3:17 PM:

" To: Dwarf. You mean what the "press" tells us is "wiretapping" based on what the dem politicians like Durbin, Schumer et al call 'wiretapping"? If you look at the full story you will find that truly domestic wiretapping of conversations still require warrants but data mining or foreign intelligence collections do not. The issue that the anti-US members of congress are arguing is foreign source and destination traffic that pass through US switches. Logically that does not fall under US warrant requirements and are sometimes tactical intelligence of a fleeting nature. Another issue is the legality and practicality or requiring warrants under the original FISA law due to the technical advances in telecommunications and how realistic it is during an actual hot war with global implications. Data mining has never been ruled “illegal” but Bubba had active recording of conversations of political opponents with never a peep from the “progressives”. As to water boarding, if it’s OK for our troops it’s sure OK for our enemies. Never tried it but did have the pleasure of tear gas in CBR training. "

Freedom fanatic wrote on Mar 17, 2008 2:43 PM:

" To Only in America, Cat, Big Brother and hillbilly, right on, you truly understand the evil which radical Islam is spreading in the world today. To Crimson and Patriot you must be un-ware or you ignore the evil acts of radical Islam since it's creation and continues today. Clinton empowered radical Islam terrorist with his non-existent or weak efforts to combat their terror. Bush is working at stopping the radical Islamic extremist. I don't want to kill anyone, I wished we were not at war but I will not submit to the status of victim. I'd rather fight the Islamic terrorist in Iraq, than on our streets. This war will continue until Muslims recognize all other religions, all non-Muslims and the state of Israel as equals. The constitution was written for the citizens of the United States and should not be used to give protection or aid to enemy combatants. "

hillbilly wrote on Mar 17, 2008 2:26 PM:

" to cat....ever notice they never respond to your question.like i said before these do gooders TURN MY STOMACH.........if they had the answers they would be shouting it from the rooftops. they dont. they want to tell us how bad america is, yet they offer NO solutions just talk.talk nice and it will go away. almost like dorothy,click your heels and POOF your home with the cowardly lion. "

dwarf wrote on Mar 17, 2008 2:06 PM:

" Wow, Cat, if you don't know about illegal wiretapping, then you should probably check the papers once in a while. It's not tough - the laws of the United States clearly dictate when and where wiretapping is both legal and appropriate. If you don't follow those procedures, the wiretap is illegal. The federal government and communications companies didn't see fit to follow the laws - hence, illegal. The president doesn't get awesome law-defying godlike powers to do whatever he wants.

As to waterboarding our own troops? Just like with tear gas exposure, it's part and parcel to their training to *resist* unpleasant situations, should they be in them. You're reaching for a point, but not getting it. Unless soldiers and prisoners are the same thing now?

Go ahead and try waterboarding out on yourself. Let me know how it goes, and tell me whether or not it's torture. "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 1:31 PM:

" To: Misnamed “Patriot” and aptly named “Dwarf”. Since you have missed the last 30 years remember all the attacks on US and Western personnel and interests like the Achille Laurel, TWA and other airline hijackings and bombings, Berlin disco bombing, Iran embassy takeover, WTC1 and 9/11, Rome and Vienna airport attacks, embassy bombings, attacks on tourists, etc that were directed against US and Western targets BEFORE Iraq. As to “waterboarding” as torture are you saying we are “torturing” our own troops that we put through the technique in training and where are these “illegal” wiretaps? Please refrain from using McManaic as a source on “torture” since he is a “moderate” on most issues as well as a nut case. He makes many statements that he should know better than make like the Geneva Convention applying to the terrorists in this conflict. We both set through the same Geneva Convention training in the military but he appears to have slept through his sessions. How would you two “experts” approach “defending America” or obtaining intelligence on potential terror attacks? "

hillbilly wrote on Mar 17, 2008 1:10 PM:

" it turns my stomach to hear dribble that is being posted. maybe we forget the reason why 9/11 happened....according to terrorists...to rid the world of the infadel.i say we rid the world of that way of thinking,by whatever means neccesary. being "nice" isnt the answer, in my opinion strenght is. strenght, not shame,if all you people that think randy is right........please enlighten us with youranswers to this difficult situation,because i dont think ignoring or being "nice" to these terroistsis the answer. for that matter neither is "diplomacy".remember japans diplomats??pearl harbor ring a bell? "

hillbilly wrote on Mar 17, 2008 1:02 PM:

" 2 randy.secret prisons?? guantanomo? maybe if they are secret people like you would possibly reveal them. torture iguess a FIRM please would make them answer.invading countries guess un "sanctions" didnt work,another post i guess,to address.invading is YOUR word not the congress that voted almost OVERWHELMINGLY to say find these terrorist,good then why has it changed,now?as for your "teachers"...NEA would be proud.same nea that resists God and teaches"evolution" as fact.a fact that seems to keep changing,now thats facts you can count on........and please explain to me why i should be ashamed or wrong.wrong for not wanting terrorists to draw their next breath to kill innocents? ashamed i want to not only protect america or any person for that matter,i think not. oh and geneva convention, wonder if the terrorist are members? it was designed for warring nations. i dont remeber the terrorists signing that one.as a matter of fact they scoff at it, i'm sure, just like they scoff at anything good the "west" offers. "

Redbeard wrote on Mar 17, 2008 1:00 PM:

" It really bothers me how so many Americans who claim to be patriots have become frightened children since 911. They're so afraid of the terrorists that they're willing to give up America and the moral principles for which it stands. Somehow we can't afford to be the moral leaders of the world anymore? We can't afford to be free? When did we become wimps? Grow a spine. Stand up to the terrorists and say "You can't hurt us. We're better than you. We don't need to torture. We don't need to spy on our citizens. We don't need to lie. We are a free people."

Maybe then, the rest of the world will be interested in Freedom and Democracy because they want to be like us, not because we bombed their homes. "

Patriot wrote on Mar 17, 2008 12:12 PM:

" I guess Only in America, Big Brother and the Cat want us to be worried about middle-Easterners attacking us, even though we've killed 200 of them for every American death. The main stream media has done their job well on many people. They say there are many Islamic terrorists out there to get us and whatever awful thing we do to them is justified. But is it logical for us to kill so many middle-Easterners who have done nothing to hurt us? If I'm not mistaken, we have 150,000 solidiers invading there, and yet they have no air force, no missiles, no navy, no trained armies, so how could they even get here? Admit it girls, when our kids are 6,000 miles away firing automatic weapons, dropping bombs and shooting artillery, we are ATTACKING poor foreigners and are doing NOTHING TO DEFEND AMERICA. The Bush regime has made the world much more dangerous for Americans. "

Meg wrote on Mar 17, 2008 11:32 AM:

" To Only in America: When you have a good, sound argument, and people don't want to hear it, they tell you that you're missing the point. I contend that people like you and I certainly do see their point for exactly what it is. Which is why we don't buy into it. "

dwarf wrote on Mar 17, 2008 11:23 AM:

" Only In America/Big Brother/etc - "Not resorting to torture and illegal wiretapping" does not mean "doing nothing to protect American lives." You really want the discussion to be all-or-nothing - either you're in favor of torture and illegal wiretaps or in favor of Al Qaeda bombing everything - but the world just doesn't work that way.

And waterboarding isn't torture? Please. Think it through. I mean, your candidate - who, unlike you, *has been tortured* - seems to think it is. If it's not a horrible experience (also known as *torture*), then why is it purportedly so effective at getting information out of prisoners? "

NoLongerTowny wrote on Mar 17, 2008 10:41 AM:

" To Only in America- I find it ironic how you blame the liberals for our problems yet it has been a republican president who has dragged us through the last 8 years. Bush has obviously done a great job; the value of the dollar is down, gas prices have risen over 300%, housing prices are in a slump and foreclosures are greater than ever, and millions of jobs are overseas instead of here in the states. He sounds like a winner to me. Its blind arrogance like yours that has put us in this position, and your president Bush is the epitome of that statement. "

BigBrother wrote on Mar 17, 2008 10:27 AM:

" The fact is Randy that if the muslim terrorists had been successful in the attempts on Sears Tower, The New York Subways, and any of the other foiled attempts to kill innocent Americans you would be screaming for the government to do something. You would want them to do whatever it took to make our streets safe. Muslim terrorists have attacked France, Germany, Denmark, Great Britain, Turkey, Italy, Spain, and the US without provacation. They have also attacked Embassies from all countries. How many innocent people in the world are you willing to sacrifice before you wakeup? The muslim terrorists kill their own people too. Women for not being covered or speaking to a man not their husband, men for speaking out, entire families to teach others a lesson. They have murdered countless innocent children because of their parentage. Whos evil? "

The Cat wrote on Mar 17, 2008 9:54 AM:

" Randy: Get your facts right before making your statements. Iraq and the US were in a state of ceasefire from the Gulf War prior to the 2003 invasion and Saddam continued to violate the ceasefire agreement. Afghanistan under the Taliban was harboring al_Qaeda and refused to turn over bin-Laden (who accepted responsibility for 9/11) so we aligned with the Afghan opposition to oust the Taliban regime. Neither meet the invasion without attack test. Waterboarding is NOT torture. The Geneva Convention does not apply to terror groups. Terrorists picked up overseas do not fall under US law or international law so their treatment and “secret” prison confinement is a non-issue. This is not a conventional conflict with state on state open warfare by uniformed forces but gangs of religious fanatics attacking anyone they considered “unclean” under their interpretation of religious texts. Keep in mind also this in not a new conflict (since it has been going on since the 7th Century) and is not just directed against the US but anyone considered “heretics” in their view. "

kpk82 wrote on Mar 17, 2008 9:29 AM:

" Randy, If we are attacked again, your group will say the administration didn't do enough to prevent it. You have the right to your opinion. Some countries that we are trying to make civilized would cut your head off. Now thats torture. "

Crimson wrote on Mar 17, 2008 9:18 AM:

" @ Only in America.

You're missing the point. You can't throw away law in the name of stopping terrorists. This is America, we have a constitution. No one can just disregard it because it's not convienient. People have wanted to do us harm for the duration of our existance, and every time we've suppressed the constitution, it's been a mistake. Start thinking rationally and you'll realize this. We'll be cleaning up after Dubya and his cronies for a generation, taking away power from the executive that it never should have been given. I fail to see how a clear thinking person can think the administration of Dubya is patriotic, right, good for the country, etc, etc. 10 months left, I can't wait. "

Only in America wrote on Mar 17, 2008 9:01 AM:

" To: greed and the others who don't get it. The difference between President Bush and the liberal democrat's in this country is that he understands what it takes to make our world safer and take care of people who want to kill us. Your comparisons of what you learned in 8th grade and what is going on in the real world don't even come close to what is happening worldwide. There is alot of information that the President has that you could only imagine to know or understand. The problem with liberals is they think they can "talk" to the same people who want to KILL US. How can anyone in their right mind think you can "talk" to people like this to change their mind about us??? Liberals are the downfall of America and everything America stands for.
THE DUMBING OF AMERICA CONTINUES DAILY !!!!! "

lizzie wrote on Mar 17, 2008 8:18 AM:

" I believe this is only the tip of the iceburg regarding the Bush administration. Our ferret of a president has left a quagmire to clean up and no one will know until the next president takes office how awful it really is. "

Eena wrote on Mar 17, 2008 7:58 AM:

" Randy, thank you for noticing all that is not right with this administration. The list just keeps on growing. Sort of reminds one of the pre-Nazi days. Everyone shoulds be required to read and study our Constitution, perhaps once every four years. "

middle of the road wrote on Mar 17, 2008 7:51 AM:

" Yes Randy,
It is impossible to claim the the moral high ground, when you have lowered yourself to the same level as the scum "

Greed wrote on Mar 17, 2008 6:57 AM:

" The Bush Administration locks people up so we will not find out what kind of phony war they have created. Kangaroo courts, flimsy evidence, solitary confinement, torture, and the list could go on, have made us hated throughout the world. Bush and Cheney are an example of absolute power corrupting absolutely. They have tried to turn The Republican Party into a modern day Nazi Party, with their secrecy and defying Congress’ oversight roles. If McCain gets elected, he will block the truth from coming out about this group. "

ES wrote on Mar 17, 2008 6:44 AM:

" Randy, you are right. I am glad your Social Studies teacher taught you well. You skipped illegal wire tapping, also wrong. Randy, it sometimes seems there are no good or bad guys anymore. The only morality we need to put on the current situation is greed. I do not believe the current administration is evil; I believe they are guided by their greed. Perhaps the lesson here is for future generations on what NOT to do. For that, we owe the current administration a hearty thanks. And Randy, as you learned in your class, these people will thankfully be out of the white house soon. "

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