Pantagraph.com | News | Group seeks to save Livingston Co. nursing home

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Apr 28, 2008 12:36 AM:

" What are we going to do when illegal immigrants(and there are many in Livingston County) get social security, medicaid and medicare. It's a problem probably not considered in this controversy over the nursing home. It's a worldwide problem. Here's a snippet from Britain: "Sure, the extra workers may have added £6 billion a year to the country’s GNP. And some indigenous Brits, mostly the better off ones, may have benefited from their cheap labour. However, since immigrants consume most of the extra wealth they have helped produce, none of it has spread to the vast majority of the country’s population.

Indeed, many may actually have suffered economic loss because of the extra competition from these immigrants. Those hit hardest economically by their competition include the country’s poorest groups of whom many themselves are of only comparatively recent settlement. " Same here!

"

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 16, 2008 3:07 PM:

" To VoiceInWilderness. True about Pontiac, but then again, over 25% of the population of Livingston County does live there, right? Also, it is centrally located and the county seat, so locating things like courthouses and the like there seems logical. Still, I see your point about the rest of the County and empathize. I myself was born and raised in Pontiac but my ancestry has deep roots in eastern LC going back 150 years and I have a great interest (genealogy buff) in the history of that area. Still, I never knew there was such cool stuff there! Thanks for the info. I'll have to check them out. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Apr 16, 2008 1:36 PM:

" Thanks, PH. Looks like the money is earmarked, once again for the umpteenth time, to something in or near Pontiac while the other small towns(and Pontiac IS a small town) in the county are left out. Is any promotional money going to any town but Pontiac? Of course, Pontiac has the most motels which contribute to tourism, but there are other tour possibilities in the county. It would be naive of me to expect that tour trolley to bring any paying customers anywhere but where Pontiac officials decide. It's great that Pontiac has a couple museums but there are others in the county just as interesting, such as the Chatsworth One Room Schoolhouse, the sites in Fairbury and the houses in Chenoa that were used in the underground railroad for escaping slaves. There's also the site of the last large Kickapoo Indian village(90+huts and one central building) a couple miles south of Chatsworth. There's a private medical museum north of Chatsworth and other worthy places for tourists. But, it all(or a disproportional 'most') seems to go to Pontiac, doesn't it? "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:35 PM:

" Oops. It was the other posts that asked about the referendums, not this one. Sorry to the superfluous (grab that dictionary Mod) information. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:24 PM:

" To VoiceInWilderness. Now some answers for you. First of all, I was partly wrong about the original referendum. First, there were two referendums, not one. The first was an advisory referendum on whether or not to build a new Manor. The second was a mandatory referendum to continue funding the old Manor until either it was closed or the new Manor was built. Both passed with over a 2/3 majority. As for what will happen to the landfill money ($22+ million in the account right now) if a new Manor isn’t built…it will indeed be available for other county projects. Two possibilities are a new Law and Justice Center or a new Maintenance building. Not bad for someone who doesn’t know a single thing, eh? On the elected officials front, keep in mind 4 of the board member who voted to close down the Manor didn’t run for reelection, and thus won’t have to worry about the rising wrath of Livingston County voters when the next round comes. In addition, I completely agree with you about public apathy and corrupt local governments. Well said. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 16, 2008 6:30 AM:

" To Modulation. I posted this on another thread, but since this is the one we debate this point on, I though I'd post it here too. I got in contact with my source on the board and they inform me that there wasn't a meeting last Thursday, but last Wednesday. Meanwhile, I see a gaping chasm in your postings for the evening of Wednesday, April 9th. In fact, there are no post from you that evening until 9pm, just in time to come home from a meeting, eh? In other words, you haven't been disproven a board member and my theory remains open to further data. Meanwhile, I have a whole bunch of new information that I plan on using to immolate you. Want to have some fun? "

hilldweller wrote on Apr 15, 2008 11:32 AM:

" I also agree with that Tony Sapochetti is a breath of fresh air in the Livingston County area. Just covering county board issues is a big job. Thank you Pantagraph for keeping the Pontiac bureau staffed. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Apr 15, 2008 12:31 AM:

" Typo alert...county...not country board. Corruption alert...watch your officials more closely. Insist on more coverage by news media...coverage beyond the "official" versions...coverage that digs deeper and does followups and gets as many angles of the story as possible. Some of you have no idea how important a free news media is to your lives...a news media that will not be intimidated by people distrusting them unjustly. A news media that will not tolerate officials or advertisers having ANY say in the content of stories. Most people aroung here don't trust the news media. It's the news media's job to inform you on things that affect you the most. You can see how much power boards of "trustees" have over the public interest. There should be laws against perjury by officials ...perjury to the public. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Apr 15, 2008 12:23 AM:

" I bet the proportion of rich people angry over the board's plans to turn the county old folks home to a private enterprise is about the same as we who are struggling to stay in the middle class. If a private company gets it, what happens to our tax money and the income from the landfill? What happens to the interest the "reserve" millions already in the account? Does it go to another "pet project" of our dictators in most likely Pontac? Oh,well, the country board is made up right now of 5 new "trustees" who didn't have to get more than one vote to be put in office. They ran unopposed. How many others were putin office that way, or appointed and stayed because they were then incumbents, or ran unopposed and the lethargy of Livingston County voters once again defeated them. An unwatched government does exactly what it wants to until they go too far or become corrupt or, go against the wishes...voted in referendum...of the PEOPLE.
Time to learn some stuff folks...specially who we want in charge, locally and nationally. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 14, 2008 7:08 PM:

" To Modulation. I'm not slipping at all, my friend. I simply had a busy weekend and no opportunity to call my source...and they have a life too, you know. As for the cited "failure" to close a county-based nursing home...yes, it DOES portent well for my side as it means a county tried to shut down a nursing home and failed. DUH! Your logic skills degrade before my very eyes, my friend, to the point where even a simple negation gives you trouble. Am I angering you THAT much? Must have been the jockboy comment, eh? "

Modulation wrote on Apr 14, 2008 4:11 PM:

" It also says nothing about your little dilema conncerning the legal opinion yet does it little man. Says there has only been one failed attempt at closing, THAT does not sound good for your side, eh little man. I can always tell when you are losing. Time to bring out the athlete bashing attempt. Again your jealosy is the best form of flattery to me little man. You start to lose an argument and then you attempt to change the issues away from the actual discussion. Wow what a surprise, sounds just like your pathetic counterparts on the board. Also you fail to recognize that you have been outed on the board member issue little man, "on your own time". Wow what an impresive use of force. You have time to research the legal opinon but not confirm me as a board member. Wow you are slipping little man. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 14, 2008 3:29 PM:

" To Modulation. If you're not a board member, I haven't had it proven to me yet. I'll contact my source on my own schedule, my friend, and will concede the point when the data is in and I know the person I suspect you of being was indeed there at the meeting on Thursday, IF there was a meeting on Thursday. Sorry if the logic of this issue is too much for you but I can't dumb it down any more. I'm not one of your college professors living in fear of the athletics department. As for the rest, you really need to gain control of your anger. I could barely read your post for all the spelling and grammatical errors. By the way, did you notice the latest story on the Livingston Manor? It says no counties in Illinois have closed a county-run nursing home before. Sounds like a new frontier on the legal side. You still want to assert that the matter is settled? "

Modulation wrote on Apr 14, 2008 3:07 PM:

" To: PH Calling you out again little man and you can not provide any documented proof that you did the research or have any data that is applicable to this case. I have yet to see anything from you or your side other than the same old stuff. While the side against building a new home has documented opinions from the State Attorney Generals office, financial data and a current vote. If you wish to continue little man it si time fro some proof otherwise your are done. You are like the public voice that makes comments but can not back anything they say up with hard facts, well guess what too bad. I also do not see you calling me a board member anymore. I guess you forgot again that you were proven wrong. Wow looks like you are like Detroit and I am the White Sox. Your shut out and I have two grand slams. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 14, 2008 2:56 PM:

" Wow little man again the insults and no material information about your stance again. You can not provide any proof about legal opinions becase you have no information. YOu must have a real long nose Pinoccio becauee the untrutsh seem to fly from yourside. See I made no statements that I can not back up proof again from public records and from articles in the newspaper. So buddy see when you make statements that are not public knowledge you need to give expamples that can be verified, which again you refuse to provide. As for egg or their face I would bet that is you as you are continuously called out for lying and providing no proof of arguments that you state you researched, or did you????? "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 14, 2008 2:50 PM:

" To Modulation. You know as well as I do that I could come up with a provable Grand Unified Theory of physics and you still wouldn't concede that I've accomplished anything. That's who you are, my friend, which is why I've stopped trying to convince you of anything and am happy to let you make an a$$ of yourself in public as a representative of those who oppose a new Manor. Working quite well, actually. Anyone reading this might find themselves on the side of a new Manor just because you come off as such a heartless scoundrel. Once again, we'll see about the lawyer game. In addition, we'll see how the elections this fall go. I predict those who voted to close the Manor will find themselves off the board and replaced with those who actually care about the will of the people. Go peasants! "

Modulation wrote on Apr 14, 2008 2:10 PM:

" Well if it is not the scarcastic one. Again making statements with no evidence or back ground. I am sure glad that you have all the time in the world at your powerful job to research that type of information. As you can see it has impressed me. One thing you need to remember little man there needs to be some contradictory information or presidence that can cause that opinion to be changed. In this case it was stated in the articles that this opinon is identical to others that have been made before and provided to other boards. So gues what WRONG AGAIN LITTLE MAN. Keep trying maybe one day you will state something that will impress me but so far nothing you have said even comes close. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 14, 2008 12:37 PM:

" To Modulation. Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one you're unnecessarily rude to. I have researched the Attorney General's office and found that they have, indeed, reversed decisions before without the law changing, but merely with the interpretation and implementation of the law changing. So guess what, my friend? It CAN happen, and there are obviously those more in the know than you or I who think so. Time will tell, right? In the meantime, the peasant revolution continues. With people like you telling them to "eat cake", Bastille Day should be coming any time now. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 14, 2008 9:04 AM:

" To Voice: Wow that is really funny. The trash heap sits right outside Pontiac and we are the first to have issues with the heap. We should have the first and most from the proceeds of this trash mound. As for your little development, I have yet to see anything positive other than promises from the developer. The other issues maybe you need to elaborate a little more in your statements, expecially about school boards. Otherwise Tony is the same old reporter. I have yet to see anything other than reporting the same old news. I see no investigating or digging only reporting what is said in public. "

VoiceInWilderness wrote on Apr 12, 2008 5:24 AM:

" Mr Sapochetti is the type of reporter the public needs. He has yet to quote somebody pointing out that PONTIAC gets most of the benefits from the landfill and hogs a lot of other resources very disproportionately. Perhaps the new discoverers of the wheel called mayoral cooperation will help. Considering the recently added to(160 acres) garbage dump near Pontiac indicated some optimism about the future need and the dump lost a lot of Chicago business for some unreported or explained reason, that Oliver's Crossing is the ONLY private development in a TIF plan that promises at least 23 private developments, that smaller town and other boards are getting little attention on behalf of the public they're supposed to be serving and a school board president can point out conflicts of interest with little or no news coverage and on and on and on...Mr Sapochetti's job is cut out for him. There's no lack of news in this area, just a general disdain and distrust of news that has been around since Vice President Agnew and Nixon. I share Political Heretic's gratitude for Sapochetti. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 11, 2008 7:25 PM:

" Verrry good! Your finally beginning to debate like a reasonable man would. Unfortunately, the lady and I have a wonderful weekend planned visiting a friend from Chicago. I will be enjoying the cosmopolitan atmosphere and street-level music culture that a backwater like Livingston County lacks...like the economic failure I am, of course. See you on Monday. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 11, 2008 6:42 PM:

" Well Ph your last post proves just how much less you know. See the Attorney Generals office is lawyers and they interpret and make legal decsions based upon law. Those legal decisions do not change unless the law changes. Guess you have no clue about law either, just another thing that you prove you have no idea about. So maybe a Democrat elected in Illinois can be correct, sure seems like Lisa Madigans office hit the nail on the head with their legal oppinon. Just another nail in the coffin of that hole in the wall. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 11, 2008 6:06 AM:

" To Modulation. Glad to see you here, my friend. Of course, I'll need to make sure there WAS a meeting last night and that the board member I suspect you of being was there, right? I'll keep you up to date on that. This assuming you didn't have your son post that 7:21pm message, right? I didn't say lawyers change their minds, I said agencies change their minds. Big difference, and yet another example of your poor reading comprehension. By the way, my ego is not bloated, but I do also enjoy debating you if only to catch your flawed logic and backwards-working thinking. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 10, 2008 7:21 PM:

" Well too bad little man you are wrong again. As I informed you I am not a member of the board. So I expect a complete retort. As for the lawyers, last I knew they do not change their minds on opinions that were researched and provided by two seperate lawyers to two different inquiries. So if you and your little friends wish to cry so beit it only stengthens the arugment against any such place. As for answering your posts that is called dumb luck, which you should understand very well. I do not sit waiting for your predictable posts. Besides it is fun watching some little man with a bloated ego eat his shorts when proven wrong again and again. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 10, 2008 6:31 PM:

" To Modulation. Wait a minute! You CAN'T answer, can you? You're goin' to a meetin', ain't yah? "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 10, 2008 4:23 PM:

" To Modulation. We’ll see about the lawyers, eh? Agencies reverse decisions all the time, my friend. Your attempt to characterize advocates of a new Manor as crybabies is funny; especially considering you can’t spell the word…TWICE! And as said before, you obviously don’t have a life or something better to do as is attested to by your repeated need to answer my posts within minutes of their posting. Face it, my friend, I keep saying things you and your rich buddies don’t want read, because they are true, and thus you feel the need to retort every time. THAT’S why I’m your obsession. Please answer again to prove me right. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 10, 2008 3:29 PM:

" Well little man if you could read you would understand that there is NO AMBIGUITY in the minds of the lawyers only the few crybabys on the board and nutcases in the public that believe a local lawyer of one of the crybabys. So from that standpoint I guess if you do not believe the decision of the State Attorney Generals Office then what, but that is grasping at straws. As for your other post information like I said I do have a life and have other things to do in my life other than beat you up on here and make a fool of you. So believe what you want little man and take a look at the State website mentioned for the anouncement of the intent to close that states all that is needed. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 10, 2008 3:15 PM:

" To Modulation. Well, well, my friend. It looks like the Daily Leader's website just posted a story about our favorite topic. Looks like there was a meeting of the Livingston County Board's Nursing Home Committee last night. Sure this doesn't explain why there was a gap between 2:51pm and 9:03pm where you did no posting? It's not like you to let 6 hours go by without responding to me, is it? It also looks like there is some ambiguity about whether or not a 2/3 vote was needed to close the Manor. This should be interesting to watch, to say the least. Better hope the People's Voice LC doesn't get that money to hire a lawyer. Maybe I'll make a donation, eh? :) Yes, my friend, the revolution is starting. Better look out your window for torches and pitchforks. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 10, 2008 1:39 PM:

" Also as for your letter of today, I would say that it is a draw currently. There is one comment at the bottom that sums up everything. It is not the responsibility of the county to support anyone. If that one letter and no supporting comments is a real revolution then I should run and hide beacuse that compares equivalently to the protests in France and the UK against China. We should all fear this revolution. HAHA. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 10, 2008 1:35 PM:

" Idle threats from you mean nothing as you have yet to prove a thing little one. Please expose me for who you think that I am. If you are so brave and brazen put your money where your mouth is. But otherwise your are a coward and speak big but have no intestinal fortitude to prove anything. You are just a coward that hides behind his keyboard and can not make it in the real world. This also explaines a lot about the big chip on your shoulder for anyone who has made something of themselves. Face it you have done nothing to prove any business need for a home other than what your cronies have written in letters to the editor. BOO HOO type discussions. Nothing about financial issues on funding. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 10, 2008 1:19 PM:

" To Modulation. So you reject my offer again? This convinces me all the more that you are a board member. I've debated you enough, my friend, to know that if you weren't a board member, you'd be jumping at this opportunity to humiliate me. Just imagine the pie on my face if you were debating me tonight and the board member I think you are was at the meeting at the same time! While it wouldn't win you the entire debate, it would certainly put a REAL chink in my armor, which currently is barely scratched. As things stand, however, you refuse my offer, exposing that you WON'T be on online tonight because you will be elsewhere. Namely, at the Livingston County board meeting. Deny it online if you will, but you know I'm right. Better hope it's never exposed to your fellow board member or the general public. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 10, 2008 1:04 PM:

" Little One you also must prove someone is lying in order to say that one is lying. So by your mere statement that I am a board member means absolutely nothing. You and your supposed friend on the board will have to try harder to figure this one out. I give nothing away so little one keep trying. Just as easy as you say that I am lying and am a board member you also lied because you do not have a source or will not prove the issue by providing a name. See I know who your supposed source is, that was not difficult. I also know the person so I understand the lack of business sense and knowledge that that person has, so if you do have a source it is a sorry one at that. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 10, 2008 12:59 PM:

" Well Little man I will give you the same benefit that you gave me in naming your supposed source of information. So the answer would be NO I will not be on line tonight. I will let your little mind stew in who you think I am and who I actually am. As for the issue of moving people out of county that is called intuition little one. You stated that there were not enough beds in county to handle the current medicaid load, LOGIC would then be that these pople paid for by the government could be moved to other counties to meet the demands. Wow that was difficlt to imagine. Now little one your armor that you may have thought you had has a significant number of chinks in it. You are clueless when it come to business decisions as I have proven and have no clue to whom you speak so Little one YOU LOSE AGAIN. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 10, 2008 12:40 PM:

" To Modulation. As for the information not available to the general public that you’ve demonstrated…how about your acknowledgement that some Medicare patients will have to be placed outside of the county? At that time, no news source had published that anyone questioned the sufficient availability of Medicare beds or the survey that said there were sufficient Medicare beds. Yet you asserted that my knowledge that the Medicare bed survey had deceptive parameters was “confidential” and that it broke the law. By doing this, you expose that you knew the survey was deceptive, and thus had knowledge not available in the media. It also indicates that you are more involved in the effort to kill the Manor than you acknowledge. Still, it technically doesn’t prove you’re a board member. So do you accept my challenge or not? If you aren’t a board member, you should jump at this chance to watch me walk off a cliff, right? I’m willing to up the stakes and put myself on the line, are you? By the way, check out the opinion page. Looks like another person is speaking up for the new Manor! The revolution continues, my friend. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 10, 2008 12:39 PM:

" To Modulation. I’m quite capable of discerning an imposter posting under your name, even your own son. Trust me, you have a very specific argumentation style. As for your lies, I won’t waste my 200 words listing all of them, but for now I will stay with the assertion that you are lying about not being a board member. However, you are right in one respect; I do not have absolute proof you are. This is why I’m offering you the chance to prove me wrong instead. There is a meeting tonight, I believe. I will be posting here during that meeting and expect you to respond back as soon as possible. Prepare to answer discerning questions to prove it is you. You say you have a life and can’t post in the evening. Yet you posted at 9pm yesterday. Wait a minute! Was that a lie on your part? Think so. If you really aren’t a board member, you should be able to post and the member I suspect you of being should be at the meeting at the same time, right? Except the challenge if you aren’t lying. Think of it as a chance to prove me wrong. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 9:08 PM:

" Accusations again that you can not prove. How about posting who you believe I am little man. Again that way I can contact that person to indicate that you are slandering them online. You are such the brave little sole but you can not debate with who you describe as a dumb jock. You make accusation but NO PROOF THAT IS VERIFIABLE. Please m my little pal if you think that I am a board memebr please provide me with the data or statistics that I have used that is not available to the public in the paper. Please inform me great one show me that I have used data before it became public knowledge. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 9:03 PM:

" Well Little man lets see there are others in my family that hace access to OUR computerl lets say I ask my son to post for me. That sounds pretty rational to me. Guess someone with your self described intellegence could not figure that one out.

And again little man you STILL have not posted your purported list of lies that I have made in the past posts. Please amuse me again little man because I am growing tired of your childish antics and lack backbone. See my friend if I make a statement I have the ability to follow with proof. Where you make statements without any proof and attempt to move the discussion to other areas in hopes that a change in topic will result in lost memory of your childish diatribe. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 9, 2008 3:31 PM:

" To Mod. Oh yeah, how can someone else post on the forum under your name with the Pantagraph's new online ID system? Does your lack of imagination and innovation extend to your passwords as well? "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 9, 2008 3:28 PM:

" To Modulation. I'm LMAO here, my friend. First, your impatiently post that I haven't posted, and thus must be defeated. Then my post appears before yours! Next is a long example of transference, which I found quite entertaining. Anger issues? Look in the mirror, my friend, because your last two messages contained enough vitriol that I could feel the froth from here. This is probably why you are falling back on your old, failed arguments. I, on the other hand, am as serene as a Buddhist monk. Yes, the meetings are in the evening, a time of day we’ve debated many times. So why the assertion that you have a life and therefore cannot post at the time? Mere evasion, my friend. Fact is, you are a board member, debating this issue with me online after criticizing my source for discussing the same topic offline. What a hypocrite! In addition, if your only source is the newspaper, how come you claim to know so much about how local government runs? Also, how would you know my information is confidential? Is local civics a favored passion of yours? If so…talk about not having a life! "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 2:51 PM:

" Also your state of mind is an issue by the random posts that say nothing and accuse me of things that you can in no way prove. You are attempting to change the discussions to a point that does not matter in anthing that is stated here. Additionaly, there is no information that I have used in debating these feeble attempts by you that is not taken from public reports other than in papers. I have more knowledge of this issue than you because I read and comprehend unlike you that has anger and other issues that leads you to make statements that you can not prove with documented information other than confidential information from a supposed source on the board. So if you continue I will continue to pick you apart as I have in the past on each issue. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 2:46 PM:

" Again little man I nailed you and I am still waiting for your post. You stated that I have lied on this and others posts. So post the lies make the accusations, you can not because you have no proof just like all your comments in this debate.

As for what I do, the normal board meetings are held in the evenings are they not, Like I said I have a life buddy it is you that do not. You have failed to raise anything not even a good argument in any debated issues buddy and have not PROVEN A SINGLE POINT. Just as in this discussion you have no way of proving that I am a board memebr your feeble attempt at proving your point could be easily defeated by someone posting under my name. So again you lose!! "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 9, 2008 2:07 PM:

" To Modulation. You claim you have a life, are busy working, and have better things to do than "sit on this forum waiting to discuss anything with you", but you obviously don't. Just look at the time between my last post and yours...a mere half hour! You obviously check for my posts quite often. If I act childishly, it's only because I'm debating an opponent who has repeatedly refused to have a civil discourse on this subject and has childishly insulted me for the effort. After all, I AM the one who has repeatedly tried in vain to elevate the debate to a more mature level, aren't I? Well, my friend, I've given up all hope of that and now I am going to fight fire with fire. So either accept my challenge or quit trying to claim you aren't a board member. Your slander about my maturity level and mental health are merely red herrings made to distract from the fact that I'VE NAILED YOU on this and you know it. By the way, I know you travel for your job, that's why you missed a meeting lately, isn't it? "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 1:53 PM:

" To Little man I have reread your previous posts. You really need to get a life and seek professional help because you have some real issues buddy. Simply to sit around and develop an argument in an attempt to see if I am a board member simply sickening. To make statements that you have proves that you have some severe issues with control and can not understand rational thinking when it opposes your opinions. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 1:34 PM:

" Problem little man. I have a life and do not sit on this forum waiting to discuss anything with you and I have no idea when the next board meeting is scheduled. Unlike you I work and am productive in my business life unlike you, I also travel for business. I have no idea what you are talking about with the notebook reference so grow up little man and stop playing these childish antics. Post like a grown up. As for the vote that was taken this has been proven time and time again that this was a flawed vote and that people voted without ANY EDUCATION OF THE SUBJECT. This is a business decision and those decisions happen all the time based upon information that has changed since a vote or the public was not privy to at the time of the vote, so let go little man this has no affect on you or your family. It is a control issue with you and you have some real issues that should cause you to seek professional help. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 9, 2008 12:57 PM:

" I will know you are not the board member I think you are because if they are at the board meeting (sans notebook) while you are debating me here on the forum, then it follows necessarily that you could not be them, right? See, my ability to reason is impeccable. So you aren't excepting my challenge? Why not? If you truly aren't the person I believe you to be, which you claim, then this is the perfect opportunity to prove it and smear egg all over my face. Wouldn't you like that? I bet you would. So why not accept my challenge? Simple…because I'm right and you know it. As for my motives, let's just say I HATE it when the voters speak loud and clearly and the plutocrats do what they want to do anyway. You might have noticed how much I despise the Bloomington Coliseum for the same reason. As for the rest of your insults...I can't wait for the day the new Manor is approved. On that day, my friend, I might choose to reveal my true identity to you so I can laugh at how far off your suppositions about me are. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 10:52 AM:

" Little man your logic is also incorrect on the board member issue. If I am not a board memeber and not at the meeting but use public domain information how will you know that I am not a board member. See little man you act like a Pre K child with your little antics and lack of ability to reason. You want to stick your nose into issues that you have no skin in the game over. How sick and twisted are you that you live in McLean County, have no one in this home, pay no taxes in Livingston county but you attend the Linvingston county board meetings. Sounds like you have control issues and a lot of time on your hands. Sounds like maybe you need to use that time to gain business sense and improve your standing in your current job maybe then you would not be so ill tempered and full of hate and accusations. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 10:46 AM:

" Again Little man you dodge the question. You stated that I have been lying. So what are the lies? What are the assertions by you. But again you are full of hollow threats and even less in the way of real proof or answers to anything that has been posted. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 9, 2008 9:43 AM:

" To Modulation. I'm glad to see you haven't given in. You're elongated silence made little man worry that his friend had wimped out. But no, here you are again with your ad hominen attacks. That's all you have, isn't it? Sad. As for my accusation of you being a board member, and your assertion that I am wrong; I invite you to prove it. I know which board member I think you are, so during the next board meeting I will be expecting you to debate me back and forth continually here on the forum. If that board member is in attendance, and you don't answer my posts, I will know I am correct. If you are on the forum, but the board member isn't at the meeting, I will know I am correct. If you repeatedly post in a manner consistent with your earlier posts, AND the board member is at the meeting, I will be proven incorrect. Sound easy enough? After all, you can't be at both places at once, right? And be aware, if you are at the meeting attending to a notebook, I will know that too. :) "

Modulation wrote on Apr 9, 2008 7:21 AM:

" First little man it is fun to prove you wrong again and again that is why I post against someone that makes statesment but provides no facts to prove those statements. Second you call me a liar, again case and point, you provide no proof of the claims that you make. You make your simplistic staements in hope of diverting the discussion from the real issues. That is your tactic. You all me a board member but again no proof. Little man you are the type that I see sonstantly. The ones that never succeeded in life but have a big chip on their shoulders. The ones that are underacheivers because that can not provide facts and afigures to prove a point. Well little man as I have said before, you can not debate professionally because you can not keep your cool and can not provide factual information that would result in anyone conceeding a topic to you. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 7, 2008 3:33 PM:

" To Modulation. First, I fully understand that Medicare and Medicaid need to pay their bills, but how to achieve that is a separate topic and only indirectly related to whether or not a new Manor should be built. Second, my arguments, whether I live in LC or not, obviously do mean something as is testified by your obsessive need to retort to them. And yes, those who pay taxes in LC, no matter how much or how little, WILL be the ones who SHOULD decide this issue (through their voting habits) and aren’t all necessarily the deadbeats you claim them to be. Your judgment of these people, my friend, shows how narrow and uncompassionate your worldview and experience is. Third, I believe you are indeed a board member and that you lie on this forum to hide this fact. Either that, or there is a board member who has the exact same opinions, disagreeable personality, knowledge of this subject, and absence patterns as you. Occam's razor leads me to believe this an extremely unlikely possibility, so I will continue to assume you are lying as you’ve been caught doing several times during our discussions. Meanwhile…THE MANOR LIVES!!! "

Modulation wrote on Apr 7, 2008 2:21 PM:

" First little man I guess you do not understand the point is that funding for MOST of the people you so speak of will come from Medicare and Medicaid. If they do not pay their bills on time or ever, who will pay for the services. I guess you would not understand those simple financial issues. Second Litlle Man, As I said before, YOU DO NOT PAY TAXES IN THE COUNTY, YOU HAVE NO ONE IN THE HOME, AND YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTED BY ANYONE ON THE BOARD. SO THERFORE YOUR OPINION AND BULL @#$% ARGUMENTS MEAN NOTHING. The only people that count on here is the people who pay taxes in Livingston County and the ones whose property taxes will go up to support those people that have done nothing to save for themselves, worked to improve themselves and likely have lived off the tax payers for most of their lives. Also little man as usual you are wrong again. I am not a memebr of the board, never have been and never will. So keep guessing and making up libelous accusations. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 7, 2008 1:32 PM:

" To Modulation. First of all, it’s the People’s Voice LC, not the Public voice. As for the hospital in Chicago…it sounds like your complaint is with the health care system itself, not necessarily with a new Manor. You claim chain nursing homes are the best solution, but my experience tells me they tend to be joyless rabbit hutches where the desire for profits trumps the desire to provide quality care every time; one of the reasons these places also tend to have revolving door policies of who they employ. Meanwhile, the Manor has a long-term, experienced, compassionate staff already in place, which tells me a lot about how it’s run. It would be a shame to lose that along with a symbol of LC’s long tradition of decency. You complain that voters were uninformed four years ago. Well then, how about a new vote? You claim better information is available, and that you have the better argument, so why not? Of course, it won’t happen, because you cronies KNOW THE PEOPLE WANT IT. You’re on the board to represent your constituents, not to serve your own selfish interest, but it is only the latter you are interested in, isn’t it? "

Modulation wrote on Apr 7, 2008 7:42 AM:

" Yes Public voice and those that believe this place can make a go of it. A hospital in Chicago is shutting its doors because it is losing $20,000,000 a year due to lack of payments for the poor and treatment without payment at all. They have also indicated that Medicaid and Medicare payments are lacking but we have fools that want to spend $20,000,000+ on a new nuring home. How do you think they are going to pay for services. It is going to be on the backs of us tax payers again. As it has been said before this is a single location home and can not withstand any changes in funding or expenses. These services are better supported by a nursing home company with numerous locations that can offset the lack of funding and changes in funding by large numbers. But again the public voice bases its position on past votes that were taken without benefit of any education of the public. With the current changes to funding this is NOT a time for construction of a new home and will cost this county more money. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 5, 2008 8:11 AM:

" To Modulation. Part 2. Point is, those who stayed behind lived in an area of immense social immobility. Yet it is these people who make YOUR success, and the success of those rich farmer friends of yours, possible. They deserve to be able to go out to eat once in a while. They deserve to not have a single medical incident destroy them economically. And they deserve to be assured a place, HERE in Livingston County where they've lived, where they will have a bed to lay their aged bodies someday. The economics are NOT as bleak as you make them out to be, and considering the upcoming economic drop, would have probably been MUCH less expensive to have built three years ago in real dollars. The demographic shifts coming to LC will double the senior citizen population in the next 20 years. Many of these people will be on Medicare/Medicaid. Will those for-profit nursing homes want to take them all then? I think not. By the way, I welcome an open discussion of the finances of a new Manor. It will save me from debating here, in a format not well suited to the task. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 5, 2008 8:11 AM:

" To Modulation. Part 1. What a wonderful synopsis of your best empty insults! Mostly inaccurate, as usual, but at least consistent. I'm not representing anything but my own opinion on the matter, so your argument that I do is unsound. You, on the other hand, get on the Pantagraph forum and pretend to be a standard Livingston County taxpayer. I think we both know you aren't, and I think we both know you have a personal stake in keeping information about how this issue was sold to the board, resulting in them voting down a new Manor after the people voted for one. The peasants are raising in Livingston County, my friend. They know a lot of them have been working for chump change under Livingston County's rigidly hierarchical system. THAT's why LC lost 5% of it's population between 1980-1990. Talented, creative people like myself left because we knew there was NOTHING here for us if we weren't born into it. Even the mayor, Scott McCoy, had to leave the area for a while in order to accomplish his own success before coming back to use the entire Pontiac elite as a footstool to the top. Good job, Scott! "

Modulation wrote on Apr 4, 2008 6:32 PM:

" Now to Tony, you want to write an article how about digging into the cost of an such home. You keep fanning the flamesd with this garbage from a group that probably pays very little in property taxes anyway. How about a little research to determine how much property taxes will need to be increased if this waste of money is built. How about how this group of people expect to cover the reimbursement of $25,000 per medicaid patient. It is time that you do some diggin instead of jsut reporting the same old BLAH, BLAH, BLAH from this side. Ask the tough questions from these people. They have yet to discuss this issue but want to fan the flames so that they can get elected. "

Modulation wrote on Apr 4, 2008 6:28 PM:

" To Plitical Heretic: It is time little man that you stayed in McLean county and kept your nose out of this county. You do not pay taxes here so therefore you can not vote and have no say in what goes on in this county. You are biased for some reason because you felt slighted as a child and can not handle rejection and failure. It is obvious that you have not made the most of your life because you are against anyone that had worked hard and mkaes a good living. So too bad for you. If you want to prove anything how about writing to the editor with your proof that people in this county can not save for retirement otherwise you are ignored. "

happy one wrote on Apr 4, 2008 4:31 PM:

" of course there are not enough medicare/medicaid beds- they are money losers. The state doesn't pay on time or cover all cost for care it should. Only private pay patients keep some places open. It just is not profitable for anyone to run some homes , someone has to pick up the tab- and people are tired of paying out in taxes. It is sad end for many folks, doesn't take long to run thru personal cash when living there. The options are limited- home care visits, assisted living, private sitters, and living with family members. Still comes down to payment source. Cost and who is going to pay for it. "

tmac_74 wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:28 AM:

" JD hope you have pilles of money for when you get old so you can afford care in your old age.... "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 4, 2008 10:57 AM:

" To the Original JD. By the way, I think you mean county, not country. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 4, 2008 10:52 AM:

" To The Original JD. I disagree. Livingston County is a stratified 'ol boys network where only 30% of the households make more than $50,000. That's 70% of the households who don't make squat and certainly not enough to save for retirement. Trust me, I've punched through multiple Excel spreadsheets trying to make it work and it can't be done even under the most optimistic conditions. These people are not loafers on welfare, but people like the farm hands who slave away in our fields for crap wages. Without these people, the agricultural engine of Livingston County, and thus the economic engine, would fail. So yes, these people most certainly deserve a nursing home to rest their broken bodies in their old age. It’s only decent. "

The Original JD wrote on Apr 4, 2008 9:58 AM:

" No one is entitled to nurse centers. I am sure that if it was profitable, the country would have continued to operate it. People can not expect the country to continue to run the nursing home at a debit, thus forcing everyone in the country to subsidize it. If people do not want the nursing home to close, then they should purchase the building and operate themselves. Of course, that will never happen. "

Political Heretic wrote on Apr 4, 2008 6:02 AM:

" Yes! Livingston County residents have good reason to be skeptical of the surveys that say there are enough Medicare/Medicaid beds available. The survey presented by Bill Wahls in late February had deceptive parameters as it only counted how many beds were technically labeled as Medicare/Medicaid beds, but did not account for the fact that some of those beds were already filled with non-Medicare residents. Notice that in this story they point out that some residents would have to be moved out of the county ("surrounding areas"), a factor presented neither by the original presentation of the survey nor the Pantagraph's story on it at the time. However, I would still like to thank Mr. Sapochetti for not letting this story die. The voters of Livingston County wanted the new Manor but were foiled by rich businessmen and farmers on the county board who will have no worries about their own retirement. Agricultural subsidies played no small part in the wealth building of many of these men. So welfare is good enough for them but not the poor? "

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