Pantagraph.com | News | Gay, lesbian, transgender students tell of bullying, callous officials

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

KingSalmon wrote on May 8, 2008 2:37 AM:

" RE: "The Cat".

Know what, dude? You're right. Debate over. Case closed. You win. You're great.

Bullying & violence? Gay kids should just deal with it.

Gays who seek equality? They should just deal with less than equal, too.

You? Just keep enjoying the privilege & bounty of your full and total rights and hope that someday you don't have to sit down and explain to your gay child, grandchild or niece/nephew why they don't get the same full rights that you do- and why early in life you yourself decided they deserved less than you in this nation of fair and equitable for all. You expalin to your gay little son or grandson just exactly why he's not good enough to be a Boy Scout. "

The Cat wrote on May 7, 2008 7:28 PM:

" KingSalmon: Behavior termed “bullying” occurs for a variety of reasons and used to be handled personally in the past. Usually someone is perceived to be “weaker” and easily picked on or an “outsider” and deserving of taunting and ridicule. In the past it was usually handled with a fight but today we are too “enlightened” and zero tolerance is now the norm. This “touchy-feely” approach really doesn’t solve the problem but just drives it underground and sparks more resentment. As to the fight for homosexual “rights”, a big problem today is everyone has a list of “rights” they seemed entitled to even if those “rights” may conflict with the “rights” of others. Private entities like the Boy Scouts have rights of association also that has been confirmed by the Supreme Court. "

110100100 wrote on May 5, 2008 4:16 PM:

" Ah yes, the audacity and arrogance of fools who claim to know what ‘God intended.’ 3000 years ago a bunch of self-titled clowns calling themselves ‘prophets’ ran around claiming they carried divine messages that were usually revealed to them in dreams (go figure) or talking plants. They advised us to sacrifice animals, worship some golden box, and gather the village elders to beat the brains out of anyone who worked on the Sabbath. Over the years, we had to pick and choose which prophecies were convenient enough to pay attention to, so now we pray to a dead Jew the Roman’s crucified back when Romans crucified people at on an industrial scale.

Apparently God’s intention was to create mankind, damn them all to hell, and see how many of them choose to save themselves by seeking forgiveness from the [mortal] Son of God, (despite the fact that this is monotheism we’re talking about). Naturally there are a lot of other religions and philosophies that beg to differ, but they are all going to hell as well, so they don’t matter. No need to think for ourselves, it's all already written down. "

KingSalmon wrote on May 5, 2008 3:56 PM:

" RE: "The Cat". You are right and I am wrong. I concede. Gays should pipe-down and stop seeking equality and just be happy w/ second class citizenship. They should abandon all attempts at increased rights. They should accept bullying as something they deserve and just roll over and take the punches and be victimized. They should simply crumble under attacks from the religious and the bigoted and accept that they are the sinful, warped, low-life pond-scum they are made out to be. They should tolerate shortcomings and being shortchanged as simply their due. They should tuck their tails between their legs and just walk away defeated when they are denied or fired from a job- denied or evicted from an apartment, denied or removed from organizations such as the Boy Scouts. You are right and I was wrong. What on earth could I have been thinking? (NOW, will you shut up?) "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 5, 2008 2:55 PM:

" 'The Cat' - Your point is that the person was persistent which is offensive, I can agree to that, however you never mentioned that previously. If you feel that it's offensive no matter who the person is or what their gender or sexual orientation is then it didn't need to be brought forward because that issue was never mentioned by other posters or in the article.

And having outside GLBT groups at the school, I'll agree they shouldn't be there. If it's a forum (not an official group) then I see no trouble. And the difference is that religion and Cub Scouts and most everything else you mentioned are choices (at least 95% of the time). Being GLBT is not a choice. Banning groups that try to influence students into making a choice is wrong regardless. I have no expectations of being able to go into a school and promote or demote religion. It wouldn't be appropriate and in my mind constitutional. However, holding a forum to try and alleviate a problem against people that don't have a choice, other than if they can be themselves or not seems reasonable and good. "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 5, 2008 2:55 PM:

" 'What now?' - I'm sorry, dyslexia must have set in. And I can certainly agree that it's unprofessional to "hit on" someone in the workplace and not best suited at other places, however that doesn't make it offensive either. Just inappropriate. I feel there's a difference. "

The Cat wrote on May 5, 2008 1:43 PM:

" KingSalmon, LOL, and Young and Open Minded: I actually did have that experience many years ago when in college. It was a royal pain in the rectum too since the person was very persistent and it went on for quite a while. It is no different than a heterosexual stalking situation and the same adage as with hitting on the opposite sex where “No Means No” applies here. The problem with you “progressives” on all these issues is you think your side of the argument is all there is to the “facts” and frequently the PC principles preached are the whole story. I personally don’t care what people do it their bedroom; but I do care if they move the bedroom activities to the political and economic arena where it affects my finances and such factors as the quality of public education that I pay for via taxes or how schools prohibit military recruiting to cater to GLBT groups or how private organizations like the Boy Scouts, churches, and the Salivation Army are harassed to give in to these groups. "

What now? wrote on May 5, 2008 12:45 PM:

" Re: Young & Open Minded

The SF ad campaign is actually "Now What?", please do your research before you criticize! Plus I had this name way before that campaign came out. Bullying is bullying no mater how you put it, whether it be gay, straight, fat or skinny. There are places where it is inappropriate to "hit on" people. Yes; in the work place is unprofessional. "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 5, 2008 9:20 AM:

"
And to 'The Cat'...why is it offensive to be hit on by somebody that is gay, bi, or transgender? I don't understand why it is. At least more so than someone that is straight. I understand that there are times and places that make it awkward for any person to be hit on, but your post makes it seem as though no matter what the situation is it's offensive to be hit on. I really just can't think of a single situation where I'm in public (or work for that matter) when it would be offensive to be hit on by anyone. Whether it be man or woman, gay or straight. "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 5, 2008 9:20 AM:

" What Now?

Please stop proving 'Knowing's' point. You had grammatical errors in your submission as well. (It's further, not farther)

And is a bad SF ad campaign really the best name you could come up with?

Bullying is wrong, and we've all agreed on that. Would there have been this much discussion if the forum were about the bullying of "nerdy" kids? Or "fat" kids? I really don't think it would be, and that's why I think the forum was good. It at least gave the opportunity to open up a few more eyes that this is real and here in B-N. If everybody already knew that bullying of GLBT students took place here then there wouldn't have been this much discussion. "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on May 5, 2008 6:07 AM:

" Cat, maybe you could relate to this if we substitute gay with schizo in our debate. Now how does it feel? "

KingSalmon wrote on May 4, 2008 11:55 PM:

" RE: "The Cat wrote on May 4, 2008 8:08 PM:" I hide my gayness from you and the rest of the public to the extent that you hide your straightness from me. That's only fair, right?

P.S. Are you trying to tell us that you have folks of the same sex flirting w/ you and asking you out? Well, isn't that sweet... (and darned near completely unbelievable!) "

The Cat wrote on May 4, 2008 8:08 PM:

" For the many posters who want to keep religion out of the schools, work place, public policy, etc. the same can be said for keeping sexual preference (particularly militant GLBT activities) out of the same venues. Also, as non-PC as it many appear to the “enlightened progressives” unwanted romantic attention from a GLBT to one who is not of that persuasion is also extremely harassing. "

Geez! wrote on May 4, 2008 12:48 PM:

" Once again a few people hijack a blog to attack each other instead of focusing on the topic at hand.

Very mature - all of you who participated in it.

And some wonder where the kids get their bad attitudes and intolerance in life.

Geez! "

What now? wrote on May 3, 2008 4:37 PM:

" To: Know is half the battle.
It is called discrimination, look it up, read about, write about it. And thank you for trying to point out your status with all your degrees. Try to get your doctorate in common sense it will take you a lot farther in life. With that much education under your belt, you should know better than to enter words such as "ain't" into a public blog. Thank you for correcting your spelling, but just correct it, don't write about it. "

knowing is half the battle wrote on May 3, 2008 12:59 PM:

" Wow, what now. You really got me. Criticizing me for using ain't in a BLOG. I'm going back to school for my doctorate someday, and when I do, I'll be sure and leave ain't out of any paper I have to right. For now, my Bachelor's and Master's will half to do. I work for my customers, if a problem makes them uncomfortable, I take care of the problem. There are standards of professionalism that still exist in the workplace, and dress is still one of them. Now do you want to correct me for typing right instead of write and using half instead of have. "

Fred Bear wrote on May 2, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Peanut Gallery likes to avoid answering tough questions by protesting ad hominum attacks while at the same time calling others "fools" and otherwise engaging in ad hominum attacks. He also likes to avoid answering questions by claiming trouble with the "definition" of bullying as if no point is valid until we can come to a concrete definition, a definition which he will obviously never be satisfied with so that he can keep ignoring the real issue at hand. "

JimmyChooGirl wrote on May 2, 2008 1:42 PM:

" DonH - I sorta see where you are coming from, but then not really.

When I was 5, I had a crush on a cute boy, he made me smile. When I was 11 I had a boyfriend whom walked me home from school everyday and sometimes gave me a kiss on the cheek. When I was 17 I did the nasty with my serious boyfriend of 3 years *L*. My life didn't revolve around my "straightness", it evolved around my feelings. As I'm sure many gay people have felt the butteflies that young in life as I did. Those are called feelings, not gayness. But according to you they should have ignored their gayness (feelings) and just been a person? Should I have just been a person, instead of a straight person? Come on now! "

JimmyChooGirl wrote on May 2, 2008 1:31 PM:

" PK - How many fat kids have you heard about being murdered by thier fellow peers for being fat?

Now, how many gay/transgender kids have you heard about being murdered by their peers because of their sexual orientation - TOO MANY!!!

So yes, their is a difference. "

PK wrote on May 2, 2008 10:46 AM:

" TO chubbyalaskagriz: What I wrote was that bullying is wrong, period. If this forum was about educating about LGBT then fine. If it was about bullying, fine, but it wrong is for all not just the LGBT. If they want to point out that they wanted to be treated the same, then they need to quit saying that bullying them is different and more horrid than someone else getting bullied. That's just not true and shouting it and having a forum doesn't make it true. Bullying is wrong. Just don't set LGBT students apart even further by saying bullying them is worse than bullying someone else. Are they more special than other kids who get bullied?? "

Tom Terrific wrote on May 2, 2008 10:38 AM:

" Typical. People run out of talking points to prove their case so they resort to name calling. Time for Pantagraph to drop this story. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on May 2, 2008 8:55 AM:

" To LOL Liberal (:-D)

" ... Peanut brain calls hceuterpe a fool and practically makes love to good ol boy..."

Why do libs always project their own feelings on others? I have responded [with approval, by the way,] to ONE post by Good Old Boy. That consitutes 'practically mak[ing] love to the person??? By your twisted logic, are you and hceuterpe an 'item'? No wonder you took the moniker LOL. "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 2, 2008 8:16 AM:

" And all of you are right saying that bullying should be addressed as a whole, but it does seem much worse for GLBT students. I know I bullied another student when I was in high school and I didn't know he was gay until a few years into college. If I had the knowledge that I do now, I certainly wouldn't have treated him that way. Even joking about it when I didn't really think he was gay to begin with. Addressing the issue can also be a solution for those like me from having them face regrets on how they treated someone else in their younger years of life.

And my definitions on my previous post come from the World Health Organization.

www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 2, 2008 8:08 AM:

" Knowing is the half the battle...Hmm, you've already lost half then because you lack a great deal of knowledge.

Genitalia does NOT determine gender, it determines sex. Since Trey has male reproductive does make him male, but does not make him a man. Not all men are male and not all males are men. Just the same, not all women are female and not all females are women.

"Sex” refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

“Gender” refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

And it's also entirely possible that you wouldn't know that Trey was male unless she told you. Therefore it wouldn't make your customers uncomfortable. And if it does, then you have customers who are just as ignorant/naieve as you. And if you truly are doing it for a business reason, then you should do it anyways to encourage the rest of society to be aware of how the world really is. "

What now? wrote on May 2, 2008 5:54 AM:

" To: Knowing is half the battle

Before you post an ignorant comment, learn how to spell. Please go back to school and learn the word acceptance. Using the word "ain't" in a sentence? I am so glad I do not work for you! As an employer, if the only reason you do not hire a qualified employee is because "he" wears a dress and lipstick, well i guess we will read about you in the court news next. "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on May 2, 2008 1:47 AM:

" The bumper sticker got it right when it said: "Mean People Suck". "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on May 2, 2008 1:46 AM:

" RE: "PK wrote on May 1, 2008 10:57 PM:" According to your logic a seminar or forum on violence against women, violence against children, violence against the elderly, or violence against the disabled are pointless excess, then. After all, these populations are already protected w/ basic human rights- so why go the extra mile to bend to their specific needs and dilemmas? All in America are equal and no one is disregarded, disenfrachised, overlooked or left behind. Right? Bull-Hockey! "

PK wrote on May 1, 2008 10:57 PM:

" As I said before, bullying in any form is unacceptable. However, I want to point out that "basic rights: are NOT denied the LGBT students. They don't want basic rights. They have to right to a public education. They have to right to life (which they have), liberty (which they have), and the PURSUIT of happiness(which means trying to be happy but no guarantees). Those are the same basic rights the rest of us have. So what rights are they missing. Many students in school get bullied, not just LBGT students. They all deserve a safe environment to learn. But no group of students should be singled out to deserve a safer environment than the other students. So the forum should have been about bullying, not just bullying one group. "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on May 1, 2008 10:55 PM:

" Hey, Knowing is half the battle, you are right, its simple; Brain = Liberal, No Brain = 25%er. "

PK wrote on May 1, 2008 10:41 PM:

" Bullying in any form, physical or verbal, is unacceptable whether it is about sexual orientation, religion, race, etc. But was this forum about bullying in general, or bullying only of lgbt students. Is bullying these students worse than bullying other students? A hostile environment makes learning difficult for all students, not just LGBT students. What I want to know is what makes them so special that bullying them is worse than bullying other students so that they needed a forum to talk just about them and those who bully them. I believe in a safe environment for all students, not just the LGBT students. "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on May 1, 2008 10:09 PM:

" Now I'm all confused. Peanut brain calls hceuterpe a fool and practically makes love to good ol boy. Red is gray and yellow white, but we decide which is right, and which is an illusion. Snap out of it LOL, snap out of it!

"

Knowing is half the battle wrote on May 1, 2008 10:03 PM:

" Lot's of things funny here. Trey P., sorry young lady, you're not a boy. Transgender isn't real, no matter how many "transgenders" think it is. It's simple Penis = boy. Vagina = girl. If that can't be figured out by someone, I don't know how to walk them through that. Look, I don't advicate violence or verbal abuse of anyone, but full rights to gays and lesbians, uh uh. C'mon. No way America. As an employer myself, is it fair to me to have to hire a male who comes to work in a dress and wears lipstick and calls "himself" Jessica or Lisa or whatever, despite how uncomfortable it makes customers. I don't wish any ill will towards these kids, but from listening to the way they acted, this is not professional behavior that's gonna cut it in grown up land. Sorry folks, but I bend over backwards everyday of my life to please the public and act in ways that aren't comfortable to me. You ain't nothing special. "

KingSalmon wrote on May 1, 2008 8:39 PM:

" Dear Peanut Gallery,

It's a shame you "don't communicate with fools like hceuterpe" because I felt they brought up completely reasonable and relevant points and I was curious to read what your learned response would be. You leave us all hanging and now I just don't know what in the devil to do with the rest of my night. Shame on you! "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on May 1, 2008 3:28 PM:

" hceuterpe

Your opinion is noted, but I do not choose to communicate with fools like you. "

hceuterpe wrote on May 1, 2008 1:50 PM:

" The Peanut Gallery: I wrote what I wrote because you don't seem to understand just how close verbal vs physical abuse is. VERY.
I find it strange that you are against something that is so very close to verbal abuse. You also don't seem to understand what you consider a right vs a privilege. You don't have the right to say whatever the hell you want to someone, nor should a school nor students take it when it comes to kids. Just like you don't have a right to yell fire in a movie theater, or insight hate speech at a demonstration. You do however have the right to be who you are and you also have a right to not receive crap because of it from someone else, such as yourself.

Furthermore, verbal abuse escalates to physical abuse. That should be a matter of common sense to you. I'm sure you've seen it, and so have I.
"

The Peanut Gallery wrote on May 1, 2008 11:14 AM:

" To Young & Open Minded

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Let me respond to your points in the order which you offered them:

I disagree that any 'basic RIGHTS are denied to homosexuals. Rights are the only thing protected under the law. 'Priviledges' are not.

If homosexuals have chosen to publicly they deserve public reaction. In some cases, the acts are MEANT to provoke a reaction. BTW - if a heterosexual couple 'make out' in public, they will receive disdain. "Get a Room" is often the reaction.

Physical abuse is not only 'not right' - it's against the law. Battery is a crime and I denounce physical attacks on homosexuals because of their sexual preference. However, I draw a clear distinction between physical attacks and ridicule or ostracism. Not all do. You might want to make the same point to hceuterpe, who wrote on Apr 28, 2008 1:31 PM threatening me with violence because I have the temerity to disagree with him or her.
"

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 1, 2008 9:01 AM:

" The point here is that basic privileges are denied to the GLBT community when they are not denied to other sectors. If in school or public you see a man/boy and a woman/girl holding hands they are not ridiculed, talked behind their back, or threatened most all of the time. Yet if two men/boys or women/girls are then they are ridiculed or threatened, and sometimes physically abused. That's not right, and I would think that even you and Country Boy would agree.

But yet that's how many people act, many of whom call themselves Christians. And I ask you, how many records (whether in the Bible or historically accurate) are there of Jesus threatening, abusing, or condemning others? "

Young & Open Minded wrote on May 1, 2008 9:01 AM:

" It seems simple to me. "Peanut Gallery" - 'Bullying,' at least in my view, is taking voluntary actions to make another feel uncomfortable in a public place (where they should not feel uncomfortable b/c of other people).

I don't believe in God, therefore it's uncomfortable at times for me to be around when others pray. If they're doing it in public I don't do anything to stop them b/c it's absurd to try (and I don't want to get lectured on how I should be a Christian). That's bullying. Just the same if I start talking aloud with a group in a public setting saying that God is evil and noone should follow him then I'm just as guilty.

"

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:44 PM:

" My experience has been that religious intolerance is not limited to Al Quaida and the Taliban in far off lands. It's rampant even here. Find me a dozen church goers in B/N who don't think that their way is the ONLY way and who hasn't voiced that view in the face of, and against folks of other faiths. I keep my personal faith quiet and private, where I feel it belongs- and I recognize that religion plays an important role for some, and it can even be a beautiful thing. But the norm is for it to be not only invasive- but offensive. And there's just about nothing more ugly than invasive, offensive believers who push, taunt, ridicule, impose and force. "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Apr 30, 2008 4:05 PM:

" Hey, good ol boy, that’s okay… If, like you say, you can’t fix yourself, I wouldn’t even expect you to attempt to fix me. BTW, I just love the way you post, it puts you and your fellow conservatives who embrace you in proper perspective. I wouldn’t want you to change a thing! "

good ol boy wrote on Apr 30, 2008 1:18 PM:

" To: LOL Liberal, In the words of R. White " You can't fix stupid " so I'm not going to try to fix you. I post the way I want and if you don't like it don't read it. The same goes for my opinions in public. If you don't like it then go away,

P-gallery, maybe the poster should be named "Gay ( LOL ) Liberal" ??

hceuterpe : If p-gallery is busy or doesn't believe in it, I'll take you up on your offer. ( bring it on big boy !! ) "

Geez! wrote on Apr 30, 2008 12:44 PM:

" KingSalmon, agreed. As a real-life example in the Town of Normal, one summer day a few years back I was walking my dog around the neighborhood (near the ISU campus) and met some friendly people down the block.

Somehow, the topic turned to religion and they said they were Baptist. I told them I was Catholic, and they abruptly ended the conversation and went inside. They've never spoken to me or my family again. I never understood the reason, other than I'm not a Baptist. They aren't the only family on the block to have done this to us. We are a normal, average family living in a seemingly normal neighborhood.

It was one of the most blatant example of religious intolerance I have experienced first-hand. The parents teach their kids (by example, at least) how to be intolerant to people who wish them no harm and are getting along nicely, based upon their religion.

Anyone surprised about the bullying by kids when we have parents leading by example? Hard to blame it all on the kids, eh? "

KingSalmon wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:50 AM:

" RE: "Geez! wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:02 AM:" Well no kidding... One need not travel clear across the pond, and then the Gulf to find religious intolerance. Goodness- even here in our own beloved US of A one church battles with the next on petty issues of difference. Those of faith chastize and condemn those of different faith, or no faith, and visa-versa. No news there at all. "

Geez! wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:02 AM:

" KingSalmon - I agree; people should lighten up. However, this isn't limited to kids bullying in the playground. Some can't tolerate religious views other than their own, and that's too bad as well. Al Queda and the Taliban are a good example of these.

Others can't stand people different from them such as the Klan, Black Panthers, etc.

So just saying everyone should just lighten up might be an outlet for you to say, but it's much more difficult to implement.

So what do you do? Teach by example and realize that there are some kids you just can't reach no matter what you do. Doesn't mean we stop trying. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 30, 2008 6:38 AM:

" To LOL Liberal-

My reference to the story about the Federal suit was meant to illustrate the dangers of failing to define - PRECISELY - what one means by 'bullying'. It was not offered or intended to be a blanket endorsement of all court decisions, handed down anywhere, any time, your implication notwithstanding.

All you can offer is gratuitious attempts to insult. That's why you are a liberal - and make eveyone else LOL at your thoughts. Please keep up the good work. Your posts are a welcome break to the day's tedium. "

KingSalmon wrote on Apr 30, 2008 12:33 AM:

" RE: "Geez! wrote on Apr 28, 2008 12:43 PM:" OR another good answer could be- everyone should just lighten-up, and stop fearing/hating those who are different than they are. Both answers make perfect sense! "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Apr 29, 2008 10:21 PM:

" Peanut Brain, I can understand why you do not want to respond directly to my comment about your sudden deference to the authority of our courts, it would only serve to expose your shallowness all the more. And you are also probably well advised to latch onto Good ol boy as you have, for there is very little chance of him outwitting you, or a fruit fly for that matter. "

Mama-J wrote on Apr 29, 2008 1:54 PM:

" So many of you amaze me...you actually think it's ok for kids to be tormented at school because there's no definition of "bullying" or because not everyone condones homosexuality?? My 13 yr old daughter is overweight & gets picked on for it every day--jr. high kids are ruthless if you don't fit the mold they've created. I've asked her to talk to teachers & she won't as she's afraid of making it worse because bullies don't get punished. I bet it if were one of you, or your children who were miserable you might feel a little differently about bullying. It's real & it needs to be addressed, whether it's the overweight kid, the kid with acne, the band geek, the science nerd, or the gay kid. They all have feelings & they hurt when they're picked on. "

DonH wrote on Apr 29, 2008 10:00 AM:

" Bullying and hate crimes are wrong. For any reason against anyone. My only thing with the gay issue is, that coming out learning your true sexual orientation is a process. I don't understand how children know that they are gay at 10. Now in high school when puberty hits then things become a little more obvious. However, depending on your environment, it might be a good idea just be a person instead of a gay person.
I think too many kids get wrapped up in being gay that they let the gayness take over their life. I'm so glad that I went to school, got my degrees, etc. before I was finally able to be comfortable and out in the open. I concentrated on being a person, not a gay person. "

Meh wrote on Apr 29, 2008 9:34 AM:

" Geez!, I don't know about you, but I went to school to learn. Why should any student be forced to deal with bullying that distracts from his or her learning?

Life isn't fair, but that fact is no excuse for assault or constant torment. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 28, 2008 3:32 PM:

" to hceuterpe -

Your opinion of what is a 'reasonable opinion' is revealed by your infantile post. Thanks for showing your true colors. Isn't it past your bed time? "

hceuterpe wrote on Apr 28, 2008 1:31 PM:

" Peanut gallery: Looks like reasonable opinions are out of the question with you. Remind me to punch you in the mouth the next time we are face to face. "

Geez! wrote on Apr 28, 2008 12:43 PM:

" Kids can be very mean. Being gay almost always gets you beat up in school. It's a fact. Kids can either be "open" about their gayness and get beat up, or they can act like they aren't gay and not get beat up. Before anyone castigates me, get over the fact that life isn't fair. Whine about it to a kid that was born blind or without arms or legs. Accept reality as it is and then adapt and overcome. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 28, 2008 10:37 AM:

" To good ol boy -

You make way too much sense to be in this thread. If someone is confused as to their sex, perhaps a peek 6 inches south of the bellybutton would straighten things out. "

good ol boy wrote on Apr 28, 2008 10:30 AM:

" Hey, I'm coming out, I'm a "redneck" and if I catch a bunch of crap over it and can't deal with it, I guess I should have kept my mouth shut and not aired my private life in public. ( and you know alot of you out there are rednecks to !!) Be who you want to be and live with your choices, just don't try to make me change anything I do, to make your choice easier for you to live with !! Long live the 4 wise men (Foxworthy, Engvall, White, and "The Cable Guy" "

good ol boy wrote on Apr 28, 2008 9:58 AM:

" I was born a boy but my mind tells me I might be a girl so let me use the girls locker room and I'll get back to you in a little while !!! "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 28, 2008 7:11 AM:

" To LOL Lib -

if "ignorance is bliss", you must be in perpetual ecstasy. "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Apr 27, 2008 8:20 PM:

" You are welcome Peanut Gallery, and thank you for the compliment. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 27, 2008 6:54 PM:

" To LOL Liberal-

Thank you for vindicating every thought I had about you. You are truly a liberal.
"

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Apr 27, 2008 10:12 AM:

" KingSalmon, what a great post! Brief, yet insightful, accurate and thought-provoking. You hit a home run my friend, but you did forget to mention that Jesus is a bleeding-heart liberal! "

LOL Liberal (:-D) wrote on Apr 27, 2008 10:06 AM:

" Why thank you Peanut Gallery, for your deference to the authority of our courts and your expression of their ultimate, last-word wisdom in resolution of controversial social issues. I guess you are also a strong pro-choice supporter as well, since the Supreme Court - no less - has long ruled on and upheld that a woman’s reproductive rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. Oh, and since the courts ruled that Scooter Libby is a crook, well, I’m sure you are not one to disagree with them – right? What a moron. "

KingSalmon wrote on Apr 27, 2008 6:52 AM:

" It's always oddly peculiar to me just how different Christians manage to be from Christ, himself. Would Jesus be bullying these students? Would Satan? So- just WHO is it that these Christians are mimicking? Hmmm... Interesting isn't it? "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Apr 27, 2008 1:10 AM:

" Students are bullied for many reasons, but it's worth distinguishing, that gay students suffer bullying that is of a far different nature, with a different set of intentions, w/ a unique set of difficulties. Most agree that mean agression against someone with a stutter, with red hair, or who is chubby/skinny, or who is different in any manner is cruel and needless, but many watch aggression against gays and feel that the gay student is getting his due. There is a perspective birthed by their churches and intolerant upbringings that allows for this specific type of cruelty. Regardless of what you feel personally toward gays- or your motive for it, I think it's worth remembering that most religions- even conservative Christian churches tend to believe that BEING homosexual is not in and of itself a sin. Some believe that it's the actual physical acts themselves that are sinful. So if you're bullying with the thought that you are attacking sin- perhaps you should re-think it. One may know whether a person is or is not gay, but they typically don't possess inside knowledge of what someone is doing in the privacy of their own home. "

Anchor wrote on Apr 26, 2008 9:04 AM:

" Kids are brutally honest. There is no changing that. No matter how many books you burn or P.E. classes you outlaw. If you stand out and are noticable, you are a mark. Kids are going to rag you. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 25, 2008 6:37 AM:

" TO ALL:

Lest anyone think that my concerns about what constitutes 'bullying' are needless, please read the article on page A7 of the Pantagraph, Friday April 25, 2008, which outlines a Federal suit brought by students at Indian Prarie Unit District 204 after they were disciplined for wearing a T-shirt reading 'Be Happy, Not Gay'. The Court ruled that the students' First Amendment rights were infringed by the discipline. {"Court Says Student can Wear Anti-gay T-Shirt"}

One may reasonably inquire: who was being 'bullied' in this little fiasco?

"

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 24, 2008 6:52 AM:

" To No Longer Towney -

" ... Maybe someday people like yourself will be able to base their views off the present instead of hiding in the past ... "

And maybe someday people like you will quit their reliance of ad hominum arguments [no pun intended] {Doubtful, but possible.} "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 24, 2008 6:50 AM:

" To MWH - thank you for answering my question.

" ... bullied means anything from consistant verbal ridicule to physical assault ..."

That's quite a wide spectrum, eh?

There are already laws and policies in place for 'physical assault, are there not?

Does the MOTIVATION for the 'ridicule' make a difference" Isn't this the basis for 'hate crime' legislation? Suppose that a person who is well-known for his conservative stance on 'social issues' is discovered to engage in homosexual acts. He is castigated for his hypocrisy. [There's no fun like pointing out the flaws of social conservatives, is there?] Is this 'bullying' or is there a distinction to be drawn from his sexual orientation and the contrast between 'what he says and what he does'? "

The Original JD wrote on Apr 24, 2008 1:58 AM:

" Personally, I disagree with Christianity, but does that give me the right to treat Christians differently than I would others? Sure, I can choose to not associate with them in my personal life, but do I have the right to bully then? How about beat them up? Maybe it would be okay to call them derogatory names? Maybe I could just fire them if I find out they are Christian? You see, no matter which foot the shoe is on, treating people badly because you do not agree with some aspect of their lives is wrong. "

doctor know wrote on Apr 23, 2008 7:54 PM:

" Bullying is never acceptable even towards those who choose to deviate from natural sexual orientation. You don’t have to agree with a sexual lifestyle that is alternative to natural design to treat someone like a human being. You don’t have to feel guilty about being repulsed but make sure your disagreement doesn’t turn to hate or violence. "

Venture Bros. wrote on Apr 23, 2008 4:50 PM:

" No wonder the whole world laughs at the USA. "

NoLongerTowny wrote on Apr 23, 2008 4:04 PM:

" To The Peanut Gallery- the only difference is my opinion has substance today where your's may have at one time...100's if not 1000's of years ago. Unfortuanetly for you, this is 2008 and society has changed. Maybe someday people like yourself will be able to base their views off the present instead of hiding in the past. "

dwarf wrote on Apr 23, 2008 4:01 PM:

" Peanut Gallery - Somehow, I doubt that failing to allow straight kids to freely mock and beat up on gay kids will contribute to our moral decline as a nation.

Others - Not all bullying is the same. Bullying as a whole is a series of problems, but you can't necessarily group them all together. Gay-bashing and nerd-bashing are two separate phenomena, and they require different solutions.

My guess is that the school district is narrowly focusing these forums on GLBT students because sexual-orientation-based bullying has been identified as the primary kind of bullying currently happening within the school. "

hceuterpe wrote on Apr 23, 2008 3:36 PM:

" Jarhead71:
No the real ISSUE is the school administrators, added to the bullying by doing nothing, agreeing with the bullies with their own biased views, and even suggested the GLBT kids leave the school. This isn't a unique situation, it's been very common among those students in the past.

So in a sense, the school administrators were bullies themselves, yet which is even more dangerous because they are adults, have the authority to do something, yet turn a blind eye.

You obviously need to look deeper into the issue and realize it shouldn't just be treated like any bully. "

Meh wrote on Apr 23, 2008 3:30 PM:

" The Peanut Gallery, bullied means anything from consistant verbal ridicule to physical assault.

So answer the question, do you think that people who are gay deserve to be bullied or treated differently because of the personal religious beliefs of totally unrelated people? "

BNHuman wrote on Apr 23, 2008 3:24 PM:

" What about the harassement of the geeks, chess club, goths? What about the harassement of the Christians? It is ok for schools to stop a Christian child from speaking about God. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 23, 2008 2:45 PM:

" To Meh -

" ... do you believe that the personal religious beliefs of unrelated people are a good enough reason for people of a different sexual orientation to be bullied, treated differently before the law, by their employer, and by their school ... ?"

I have no idea what you mean when you say 'bullied'. Apparently YOU do. Please share your definition so that we will have some idea what you mean.
"

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 23, 2008 2:43 PM:

" To NoLongerTowny :

Your opinion is noted, as is mine. "

roar wrote on Apr 23, 2008 2:31 PM:

" I think we should have seperate schools because god would not want our students around such sin. Maybe we should find a way to save them from doing harm to others and themselves, we must trust in god. (I really dont mean any of that, but i had to feel what it was like to type somthing like this, which people do, and will...scary isn't it? try it for yourself, i feel dirty now and need to go forth and sin some more.) "

Meh wrote on Apr 23, 2008 2:09 PM:

" The Peanut Gallery, do you believe that the personal religious beliefs of unrelated people are a good enough reason for people of a different sexual orientation to be bullied, treated differently before the law, by their employer, and by their school?

Personal religious beliefs are just that. Keep them to yourself. Religious beliefs should not dictate law or policy. Americans who are gay, atheist, Muslim, or whatever are entitled to the same freedoms as you are. Conversely, they shouldn't be rubbing their differences in your face, either. Again, keep things civilized. "

Jarhead71 wrote on Apr 23, 2008 2:06 PM:

" The ISSUE is beating up other students or threatening them with harm. It has nothing to do with whom that other student is or their life choices, or race, religion or anything else that one either has control over or not. Public schools have become so concerned with law suits over disciplining students that the no longer discipline students. Now they just have touchy-feely sessions and symposiums and conferences to decry the victimization of somebody. Heck, they don't even discipline sexual predator teachers and employees very effectively. School administrators need to grow some intestinal fortitude and go back to disciplining misbehavior problemed students and staff. "

Pastafarian wrote on Apr 23, 2008 1:54 PM:

" It never ceases to amaze me how people justify hatred and animosity towards others because a group of men wrote a bunch of morality tales 2,000 years ago that basically reinforced their positions of power and catered to their agendas.

94mustang5: What other viewpoints should have been discussed? Your right to discriminate? The acceptable amount of physical violence allowed against a GLBT person? Really, I would like to know how you can provide an opposing viewpoint. "

NoLongerTowny wrote on Apr 23, 2008 1:50 PM:

" To The Peanut Gallery- Ignorance is defined as a lack of knowledge. Those who view homosexuality as a "moral or lifestyle choice" and condemn it because of their religious beliefs are indeed "ignorant". They are basing their views not off knowledge, but only the opinions of others before them. When there is no substantial proof to justify their "opinions or beliefs", then yes they are ignorant and lack a basic knowledge that backs up their view. This is just the same as slavery, women's rights, and other historical opinions most of society as been able to move past and grow out of. When will you? "

Michael wrote on Apr 23, 2008 1:45 PM:

" My first post this morning must have been an opinion the pantagraph didn't agree with, they didn't print it. I just wanted to say if we overprotect these kids, they will grow up and always be the "victim". I wouldn't want my kids to be like that...they can be gay and still be happy, but you can't be happy if you are always a victim! "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 23, 2008 1:24 PM:

" To NoLongerTowny:

You can characterize anyone's opinion as 'ignorant' - indeed, that may be your opinion. But that's ALL that it is. Back atchya. "

Pastafarian wrote on Apr 23, 2008 1:03 PM:

justme wrote on Apr 23, 2008 12:58 PM:

" I think this was an awesome idea! Speaking from experience, this was a needed thing. Granted bullying is not good reguardless, but GLBT's seem to get it worse for something they have no control over. "

Archibald76 wrote on Apr 23, 2008 12:06 PM:

" The forum last nights was outstanding. The theme, presented by those who participated, administrators and state/local superintendents was making schools safe for ALL our children. Bullying was defined as situations that could lead to ANY circumstance, verbal or physical, considered to be harassment or violence against ANY student. The forum addressed LGTB students and their issues, but could have been about ANY bullying for any reason. So by presenting the "other side", please tell me you are NOT referring to the side that supports harassment and violence against bullied students, including LGBT students? ALL students have a RIGHT to be SAFE. "

NoLongerTowny wrote on Apr 23, 2008 11:57 AM:

" To Peanut Gallery- So your answer to Meh basically revolves around ingnorant opinoins of the far right wing conservatives and religious fanatics. Just because many people as you say view homosexuality to be imoral does not make it just. Remember, at one time many people thought the world was flat and that the sun revolves around earth. As society evolves, so should its opinions, views and thought process. Unfortuantely many of you are basing your opinions of homosexuality off the views originally brought forth 100's of years ago. Quit living in the past and wake up to a new world. "

hceuterpe wrote on Apr 23, 2008 11:50 AM:

" Oh yeah and the same religious zealots 100 years ago tried to prove jusification of slavery against blacks and their race as second class, damned people. They said it was written plain to see in the bible, too.

You can twist religion in so many ways that you can claim to hate everyone 'cause god says so. Don't try to downplay religious views by justifying hateful doctrine. It's really getting old. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 23, 2008 11:35 AM:

"

To MEH: " The Peanut Gallery, why would one have to oppose homosexuality at all?

Answer: [which I suspect you already know] Many people have deeply-seated moral and religious opposition to homosexuality. Go to any search engine and type in 'religion + concern +homosexuality'. Many believe it to be perverse and decry the surge toward moral relativism as evidence of social decline in the West. "

94mustang5 wrote on Apr 23, 2008 11:33 AM:

" Sounds like a fairly one-sided "forum". Not much representation from other points of view. I wonder how much interest there really is? "

Meh wrote on Apr 23, 2008 10:30 AM:

" The Peanut Gallery, why would one have to oppose homosexuality at all? I can't see how another person's orientation is the business of anyone else. If you don't like someone, leave them alone. No one is making anyone be friends with anyone. Just act civilized.

And no, I don't think that vocal criticisms of sexual orientation (gay or straight or whatever), religion (or atheism), or similar things should be tolerated at school. Those sorts of things would be completely inappropriate and probably grounds for termination at most employers and should be grounds for disciplinary actions at school. Again, keep things civilized. "

hceuterpe wrote on Apr 23, 2008 10:28 AM:

" I’m very grateful a forum like this can take place here. I attended the forum last night and thought it was a great asset for our youth. I share Trey's situation. I moved from a very liberal community, far more than B-N and graduated 7 years ago from HS. Despite that, i was still far too scared to come out in HS. It's the sole reason why I waited.

I hear a lot of sentiment about why bullying shouldn't just be addressed as whole, in particular to this event but it simply doesn't work that way. All of the students expressed that in their situations (not in B-N thank goodness), they were the ones chastised when they came forward to their school's leadership. The administration made it much worse by refusing to do anything, and kept the hateful bullying to continue, or even contributed to it. Bullies’ parents in their situations sometimes made it worse and justified why they should've been bullied, or driven out of school. The difference is other types of bullying aren’t made worse because the administration STOPS it. That's why this forum is needed. "

Great Responsibility wrote on Apr 23, 2008 10:15 AM:

" Well said, Meh.
Though I would add the wrinkle that some individuals aren't as private with their private lives as they could be.
No matter what your private activities are (hobbies, sexual relations, entertainment choices, etc.), if you are openly discussing them with people, those people are allowed to have their opinions of those activities and even voice them to you.
That said, there are many people (on both sides of any fence) that cannot discuss areas of disagreement without hostility.

"

clarkbar wrote on Apr 23, 2008 10:15 AM:

" I've said it before, I'll say it again. Why are we catering to such a very small percentage of population of GLBT students? I don't believe anyone should be bullied or picked on but PLEASE....... Let's tackle other big problems that affect a bigger population percentage. "

FYI wrote on Apr 23, 2008 10:08 AM:

" Any 'minority' that is a result of a chosen path, is very easy to conceal. Simply keep your perversions to yourself, and no one will know. I do things that qualify me as a minority(and probably a pervert), but I surely don't tell anyone not intimate(and of like mind) with me. You won't ever get acceptance of being weird...especially in grade schools, but by the time you get to college, it's pretty darned rare for ANYONE to get away with harrassing anyone else...especially if that person is a minority or legal pervert. "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 23, 2008 9:04 AM:

" To MEH : "... The line is drawn when someone attacks another person in any way because of those differences ...".

You use the phrase 'attacks IN ANY WAY ... The line is drawn when someone attacks another person in any way because of those differences.'
[emphasis added]. Surely our schools already have disciplinary policies in place which forbid physical assaults on students. Does your wording encompass vocal criticism of homosexuality; or social ostracism of persons who are {or percieved to be} homosexual? What about those who passively decry homosexual practices and/or acts?

My concern is that the definition of 'bullying' is so indefinite and subject to interpretation that it - in effect - means any act or attitude which subjectively upsets a person claiming to be homosexual. This potentially transforms a 'bullying' policicy from a 'shield' to a 'sword', to be wielded by those who perceive injustice and who wish to use the policy to coerce universal acceptance of what is often a VERY unpopular set of behaviors. One cannot fashion a policy which guarantees that all persons will be content all of the time.

"

Meh wrote on Apr 23, 2008 8:47 AM:

" The Peanut Gallery, people are free to disagree with another person's sexual orientation, life choices, eating habits, religion and everything else. The line is drawn when someone attacks another person in any way because of those differences.

Although, frankly, if a student is that concerned with another student's different sexual orientation, he needs to lighten up and get out more. If you have time to meddle in an unrelated person's private life, you're a busybody. "

sully wrote on Apr 23, 2008 8:15 AM:

" Students in school get bullied and beat up for all kinds of reasons. That's pretty much been the case since public school were formed in this country. Schools need to deal with bullying problems as a WHOLE, and not be forced to cater to any particular group of victims and ignore others who are perceived as less important. "

FireBoi84 wrote on Apr 23, 2008 7:56 AM:

" This was an EXCELLENT Forum! I want to thank EVERYONE involved, especially the panel members. Whether you were a parent, a teacher, an adult, or a student the it wouldn't have been successful without you!

I wish this would have been apparent in my high school years. You are going to make it much easier for all GLBT students. This is a step in the right direction and awesome support.

Thanks to the school districts for allowing CISSA to have this forum! It was great! "

The Peanut Gallery wrote on Apr 23, 2008 6:31 AM:

" " .... A hostile atmosphere for any group of students makes the environment uneasy for all students ..."

So, if a given student perceives that he or she is in a 'hostile environment', is that student being 'bullied'? Surely students who disagree with homosexuality on religious and other grounds are entitled to do so.

Many people bandy about the term 'bullying' but fail to define it. How can we possibly agree on how to identify a possible problem if we do not agree on its definition? "

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