Pantagraph.com | Letters | Bible is relevant, should be foundation of nation

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

KingSalmon wrote on Jul 24, 2008 10:58 PM:

" re: "chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:58 AM:"

Some of us are still waiting on "icantfindmyshoes" to reply to chubby's most recent post. Where r u dude? "

tooltime wrote on Jul 24, 2008 4:02 PM:

" oh.. and one more thing.. and try to follow this, but I am having a hard time typing it.. You do not respect Mike in the slightest so you do not care whether he treats you with respect or not since he does not respect all men. BUT.. you do not respect all men either... you just said it.. you do not respect Mike because he does not respect all men and you do not respect all men so that makes you just like Mike who is in your words not honorable so I guess you then too must not be honorable... Make sense? Oh, and old biker is AWESOME.. no sarcasm there.. he really is AWESOME! "

tooltime wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:57 PM:

" The Cats - amazed that you would not meet someone like Old Biker who has earned the Capital C in Christian (wondering what exactly is the earning criteria.. sounds like it is just writing well in the eyes of the Cats.. but I digress). I am not sure how you can say that man preaches hate of homosexuals or say he spews hate - it certainly cannot be based on a single word he typed - "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:48 PM:

" The scripture speaks for itself. "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:22 PM:

" Cats - and finally to answer your questions....I don't believe in war. I believe if we all lived according to God's will, it wouldn't be necessary. But unfortunately, man is selfish and fallible, war will always exist. So, I don't protest. It won't make a difference. Instead....I pray.

I don't support the death penalty. I don't protest because I would rather spend my time building relationships with those that are heading towards a life in prison and trying to steer them down a more productive path.

Instead of protesting, I spend my time one on one with people, debating, discussing issues, trying to influence their thoughts in God's direction. I believe I'll have more impact changing one person at a time than I ever will protesting.

BTW, I don't support abortion either. "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:12 PM:

" Cats - I understand your frustration with the Christian church and Christians not rising up to the occassion. But I think you are stereotyping the masses as a result from the actions of a few. You assume that the million dollar "palaces" serve no purpose. The large churches I have attended in the past used those "palaces" for outreach purposes....food banks, child care for single parents, counseling services, sports programs, professional training, etc.

Cats, there are a lot of Christians that need to elevate their game. I need to elevate my own. But there are a lot, a lot of Christians trying to be what God has called them to be. Because we are all fallible, we don't always get it right.

Do you think maybe you are too focused on when Christians fail vs. noticing the good that gets accomplshed? "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 24, 2008 2:58 PM:

" Cats - When Jesus said "give to Caesar", the discussion was about money and taxes. Plus his point was to denounce Caesar as God, as Caesar claimed to be.

Jesus also commanded all of his disciples "to go into the world." He taught them to pray "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Jesus also commanded His followers to be "in the world, but not of the world". For me, that means I must engage with people, building relationships, and explaining to people what Jesus has to offer.

I don't believe faith has limitiations. To limit faith would be to limit God, and I believe God's abilities are far greater than science or reason will ever be able to prove. "

Gov't Depressed Mule wrote on Jul 24, 2008 9:20 AM:

" Ms. Badenhorst is entitled to her opinion. Now here is mine. Love anyone one you want. God is love. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 24, 2008 8:34 AM:

" DK61727 – from your 7/23 10:35am comment-actually is was the Jews (who believed in God, just not Jesus) that convinced the Romans to execute Christ as a heretic. Not satan worshipers or non-believers. Do you even read the bible?

And by the way, why do you feel the need to name call or insult others that disagree with your point of view? Is your life so sad that you have to try to find meaning by demeaning others? The two of us are obviously are on radically different sides regarding religion but I don’t use insults or belittling language when expressing my point of view, talking about your religion, or even addressing you. It’s called common courtesy.

Maybe it just goes to further back up what a friend of mine said to me once which was “for someone who is not a Christian, you behave more like one then most that I know.”
And that was coming from a nun that remembers the day when habits where mandatory attire. "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:58 AM:

" RE: "ican'tfindmyshoeee.. wrote on Jul 24, 2008 12:20 AM:"

...so just to clarify, you believe our 21st century image (which doesn't seem to have varied at all from the days long ago when I was a l'il boy) of Christ is limp-wristed and effeminent?

...and that the image YOU have is perhaps more reminescent of... what/whom? Stallone, Schwarzeneggar, and Segal?

...I see. "

ican'tfindmyshoeee.. wrote on Jul 24, 2008 12:20 AM:

" ps., the only apology deserved may be the presentation givin of a long haired limp wristed effeminent hippie afraid to get his robe dirty, rather than a friend who happens to be a literal King over all, offering you personally the most amazing adventure eternity has to offer. to say the least.

(repent ""and"" be baptized (submerged under water), in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

someday you'll understand. "

ican'tfindmyshoeee.. wrote on Jul 24, 2008 12:19 AM:

" DK61727 seems to have stirred up some controversy? eh? That too was my 1st reaction, as many scriptures came to mind. You know, "be kind", "loveee", and then too, the "pretty butterfly" thing so easy to fall into.

So, I looked up Mark 6:11, did a little research, went back and read some previous posts, added a little of what I understand, and...

came to the conclusion...Mark 6:10 speaks of those that "did" receive them, 6:11 of those that simply would not.

Jesus Christ Himself was mocked, ridiculed, laughed at to "His face". They tried to trip Him up, catch Him in a lie, and when could'nt, "killed Him". And these were from some of the "religious" leaders of the day (hint).

Not to mention the "great horned fire god"/"throwing virgins into volcano" movements of the day.

questions, skepticism, jokes, in todays world? human nature, even healthy and wise.
Mockery, attempting to mislead, subversion? perhaps wiping the dust off your feet is inline, with no apology needed. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:21 PM:

" Cats. I would take a shot at answering your question, if I knew what it was. I can't answer for the others that you have directed a question to. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:11 PM:

" To Old Biker...Alas I will not meet you. I am sorry to read that you think Pastor Mike is honorable (I am not sure how you can say that of a man who preaches hate of homosexuals?). He certainly had ample opportunity to respond to my questions (he used over 2500 words in the Pantagraph post following his diatribe of hate against homosexuals) and he chose not to...because there is no defense for his words. I speak with theology professors IWU but mostly rely on my reading for my information and I read all kinds of book from all kinds of viewpoints. I do not respect Mike in the slightest so I do not care whether he treats me with respect or not since he does not respect all men. I certainly would not consult with him on matters of faith as he is not an honorable man. I scorn his hatred and could not care any less what he thinks of what I write on these pages. I believe you are a Christian (capital "C" earned). "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:58 PM:

" To Conservative...your words...

"" To "The Cats": What exactly do you want answered? Maybe you should try attending church or see a priest for the answers you crave so much. There is a bright side though, you sure can quote scripture but of course only to satisfy the liberal points you're trying to make. However, by all means, keep reading scripture, maybe some of it will stick. " "

My questions were clearly stated on here. You, obviously cannot post without a radical right wing political slant nor can you defend your position on faith or the bible. Your words expose you far better then mine ever could. Thanks for the laugh. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:50 PM:

" To gotfaith...continued...I use small "c" for a reason. The god you (I think) believe in was a god of peace and love. He offered his word for those who wanted to hear it...he did not force it upon people. He said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar and to god what is god's". He said his was a heavenly (not earthly) kingdom. That does not sound like he was interested in running our government. The religious right somehow thinks OUR public schools (open for ALL children in the country) should be run by their code. Why don't they send their children to secular schools if that is how they want them educated. It also frustrates me when these christians say they believe in and follow the bible then do not rise up in arms when we kill innocents in wars, execute criminals, and spend millions ot build palaces (which they call churches) while the homeless sleep under bridges and the starving cannot afford food. Talk is cheap. I think they are hypocrites. I think, by your words and sincerity, that you are a Christian (capital "C" intended). "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:49 PM:

" To gotfaith...while I disagree with your position on this subject and I find it difficult to understand why you won't answer my questions I do appreciate the tone and content of your posts. I use the word mythology because I believe it to be correct. As to those who "walked with him"...obviously they are flawed humans...just as your god was (in my opinion). It is a wonderful tale but, as I study history, more of a footnote, than a revelation. Continued... "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:34 PM:

" To gotfaith...your words...

"is reason and science have limitations."

Are you saying faith does not have limitations? Reason and science can be factually proven...can faith? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:33 PM:

" To Gotfaith...why are you not out protesting the war and the death penalty? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:28 PM:

" Let's be reasonable says it all...this country was settled by those who FLED England to escape the Church of England, and founded by men like Jefferson (A Deitest hardly a christian). How many have died in the name of the christian god over the centuries? Corinthians says..."Love never insists on iot's own way"...why do you? BTW no answers to my questions except the Christian (he earned it) "Old Biker". "

USEyourHEADS wrote on Jul 23, 2008 6:51 PM:

" re "DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 5:38 PM"
This Christian agrees wholeheartedly with Mr. Kevin Olomon, DK. Your approach is very un-Christ-like. Quote whichever scripture you wish to justify your devilish approach. Makes no matter. Sounds to me like you belong to the "Church of YOU". "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 5:38 PM:

" Kevin Olomon wrote on Jul 23, 2008 1:20 PM: " PART ONE: Dear 'DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:56 AM:' I cannot bit my tongue. The words & manner u choose to express are an embarrassing disgrace to this Christian. You may believe you live in a vacuum where you are not obligated to reach out to others every waking moment.

Mark 6 (King James Version): 10And he [Jesus] said unto them [the twelve disciples who He sent out in pairs to preach the Gospel], In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. 11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 12And they went out, and preached that men should repent. "

Retired Farmer wrote on Jul 23, 2008 4:29 PM:

" Yep, Kevin O. good, good job! Proud to be your neightbor! Proud as heck! "

KingSalmon wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:50 PM:

" Hey Kevin Oloman, thanks you for the intelligent wisdom. "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 23, 2008 2:41 PM:

" DK61727 wrote "They serve the Prince of Darkness whom God has given dominion over the Earth. They are the majority, and people like you and I are the minority."

Here we go folks... poor, poor, pitiful persecuted christian minority... the entire 90% of the American population who claim to be of that faith.

Everytime any "nonbeliever" questions their beliefs, this is what the argument turns into, "Why do you nasty majority always persecute my minority?"

Funny, I never knew any group containing 90% of the population could be a minority. "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 23, 2008 2:12 PM:

Retired Farmer wrote on Jul 23, 2008 1:30 PM:

" Hey, "DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:56 AM:"

In Response To Your Dastardly: " "chubbyalaskagriz", look, you were born confused. Religious people aren't compelled to defend scripture against the likes of you who parse the word of God. You've heard the Good News. You can either act on it in a positive way to better your life and the lives of those around you, or you can slither away. Honestly, no one really cares what personal choice you make.

Given all the options available to you, DK61727, THIS is the manner inwhich you choose to "act in a postive way to better your life and the lives of those around you"?

Your's is the finest example of a hi-jacked, bastardized twisitng of Biblical perspective I believe I've ever witnessed in all of my nearly 70 years. You need to shape-up bud. If you think you're on the right path, you're sorely, sorely mistaken. You'll do better to stop writing and speaking-out publicly. I urge you to consider this. "

Kevin Olomon wrote on Jul 23, 2008 1:21 PM:

" PART TWO: Dear 'DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:56 AM:'

(cont'd from PART ONE)

If you're unable to exhibit a warmer, Christian demeanor those of us who believe and follow would just as soon you stop hiding behind and bullying from a scriptural perspective. You’re shepherding untruths and making false implications that have potential for drastic affect on the eternities of others AND yourself. Feeling as you do is quite human- but far better is expected of you as a Christian. I suggest you work harder and make deeper, more genuine efforts. If all else fails- please pray for clearer answers and stronger work ethic. Remember, in spreading His word, you’re doing the work of God, and he has far heavier demands on you than your supervisor at the office, or your foreman on the assembly-line. "

Kevin Olomon wrote on Jul 23, 2008 1:20 PM:

" PART ONE: Dear 'DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:56 AM:'

I cannot bit my tongue. The words & manner u choose to express are an embarrassing disgrace to this Christian. You may believe you live in a vacuum where you are not obligated to reach out to others every waking moment. You may choose to deny the duty bestowed to you & go thru life selfishly gripping tightly your perceived 'golden ticket' to an eternity that you need not break a sweat to convey to others or provide living example of thru your daily deeds. You may even decide when the going gets rough, that it's 'every man for himself' in the board-game of life & that each individual is responsible for their own eternity. But if you make these personal choices, do not falsely credit them to Christ. If you do nothing until the day your body withers & dies but spread the word, speak of the Lord to others & do your duty to deliver non-believers ‘round the clock- that still will not be enough. Believing otherwise will get you a ticket- but not to the destination you think you're headed to. (cont'd.) "

110100100 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:40 AM:

" DK61727 - You again!? I thought I scared you off. Where in the constitution does it that this country is founded as a religious nation?! "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:35 AM:

" "Tom Terrific", you are obviously a good person who means well. But, these people with whom you debate are of the same class and kind that demanded and carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

They serve the Prince of Darkness whom God has given dominion over the Earth. They are the majority, and people like you and I are the minority. It is a familiar and recurrent theme; it is identical to the majority who witnessed Christ and rejected him versus the minority who witnessed Him and accepted Him.

The scriptures state that Christians are peculiar people. Truly, that is how non-believers perceive us and, truly they perceive us accurately, since the scriptures are true.

"Tom Terrific", we have to believe those scriptures that teach us that only a very small minority of us will eventually follow Jesus. That is why, it seems to me, that Jesus instructed his disciples to shake the dust from the shoes and move on whenever someone rejects Him. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:56 AM:

" "chubbyalaskagriz", look, you were born confused. Religious people aren't compelled to defend scripture against the likes of you who parse the word of God.

You've heard the Good News. You can either act on it in a positive way to better your life and the lives of those around you, or you can slither away. Honestly, no one really cares what personal choice you make.

And, it doesn't matter one iota how you pervert the words of a few of the founding fathers. How they felt, individually, about the issue of religion is merely a matter of academic curiosity anyway. The only issue that really matters is how the founding fathers acted COLLECTIVELY (you know, the majority?) to establish the government of this nation.

This argument was clearly settled 220 years ago when the Constitution was ratified. All you have to do is read the documents upon which this nation was founded and functions to this day. This country was established as a religious nation from its very inception

And, the truth won't allow you to re-write history simply because you lost! "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:51 AM:

" 110100100 - I agree that God wants us to use our reason, sense, and intellect. But I think you condradict yourself when you state that we should be open minded to the unknown, but yet refer to the Bible as a closed book full of nothing but anecdotes and poetry. Would you say that you are being open minded to the fact the Bible may be true, or are you using limited reason and science to support your point of view?

I also agree with the fact that the Bible is often used inappropriately. It is important for Christians to keep the heart of God in context when using the Bible to justify a point of view. All to often the heart of God is excluded in the message.

And, I will say intolerance and ignorance existed before the Bible. That was the point of Jesus' ministry. All have the same value to God, Jew and Gentile, Man and Woman, Slave and Master.....God sent Jesus to save all who would believe in him. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:08 AM:

" And no one can really say that the NT cancels out all the laws of the OT because jesus clearly says that those laws are all still good to go and in affect until the end of the world. (matt 5:17-ish I think)

So if we are to base the laws of this nation on the bible, when should the movement start to bring back slavery, take away all of women’s rights, start wearing non-blended cloth, stock up on stones for public executions, and get on the polygamy train? We would only be following the laws of the bible after all……

Everyone should have the religion of their choice, but use common sense, not religion to make laws.
*part 2 of 2* "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:08 AM:

" Carl0214 – you said ‘what would be the basis for morality and current laws without the Bible?’

How about common sense? Don’t kill, steal, rape, hurt, put others in danger, etc. We don’t need the bible to tell us those things are wrong. What about other countries around the world they are not Christian nor never have been – they have a lot of the same laws as we do. Did they borrow the Christian bible just to set up their laws? No. The basic tenants in all religions are the same because they make sense, they are practical. Not because god said so.

And slavery by the way was a-ok, in fact it was encouraged as a good practice in the bible. So was treating women as property. And polygamy though not explicitly encouraged (except in the case of David where god said he would give him even more wives if he wanted them as a reward) it was not forbidden. Lots of big guys in there had multiple wives/concubines. It was only stated that bishops and holy men should have only one wife.
*part 1 of 2* "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 23, 2008 8:51 AM:

" Chubby, There is nothing wrong with a christian having great wealth. R.G. Letoureau is one example of a Christian who had tremendous wealth, but he did not squander it. The second scenario seems doubtful. If someone was to do all of that, they would probably have a strong relationship with their Lord and not necessarily take their name in vain. (Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself,just as he is pure.) If you are being for real, then talking with a pastor would be your best bet. I do hope I answered your questions in a satisfactory manner. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:18 AM:

" GotFaith - Of course reason and science have limitations. But the unknown should be met with an open mind, not a closed book. When the church charged Galileo with heresy, he replied "I do not feel obliged to believe that that same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use." The Bible has some wonderful lessons and inspiring stories but ultimately is nothing but a book of anecdotes and poetry. Sadly it has been used to justify intolerance and ignorance since its creation. "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:13 AM:

" So, Tom T. just exactly how does one get into heaven, then? Donate all his worldly goods to charity and live as a pauper? Simply ask forgiveness? Accept Christ as the savior? Seems there is more than one answer.

What happens to the dude who asks forgiveness and accepts Christ but who dies wealthy? What happens to the dude who gives all his possessions away, accepts Christ, asks forgiveness for every sin he's ever committed, but is killed in a car accident seconds after being side-swiped by a semi and taking God's name in vain?

Then there are those who say NONE of this matters- that God looks into your heart and makes His decision based on what He sees. Whew! Confusing. "

let's be reasonable wrote on Jul 22, 2008 10:48 PM:

" Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave if he read this article suggesting, for all practical purposes, building a theocracy. Perhaps he already has. "

Kineki wrote on Jul 22, 2008 10:26 PM:

" Can't we all just hold hands and sing Kum-bye-yah (however you spell it)? :) "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 22, 2008 4:37 PM:

" King Salmon, regarding the isue of hypocrisy in the church. Sadly that does exist. True Christians know that they don't fight a battle of flesh and blood but a spiritual one. Satan is real and he seeks to destroy the church, family, and even Gods ministry by sowing division in the church. You are free to believe the bible is fact or fiction. We each have free will. We can decide how we live. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 22, 2008 4:33 PM:

" King Salmon, A man asked Jesus what he needed to do for eternal life. Jesus told him to obey the commandments. He said he did this so he was told to sell his possesions and give to the poor and to follow Jesus. The man went away sad because he had great wealth. Basically, he didn't want to give up his earthly treasures. It's not easy to be a Christian if you are serious about it. God never promised great earthly riches but a reward in heaven. Thats why he said it was easier for a camel to go through a needles eye. I hope this answers your question. If not let me know and I'll try again. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 22, 2008 4:28 PM:

" 110100100, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Sure, man was inspired by God to write the bible but it is the word of God. "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 22, 2008 4:03 PM:

" GotFaith: You may be surprised to learn that those who are most immersed in studying history are the first to stand up and declare the bible bunkum. And, most athiests study the bible much more thoroughly than any christian. In fact, it's usually that study that turns them into non-believers, once they reach the point where their knowledge makes it clear that there is no truth in the "history" purported in the bible, whether it be the history of the world (OT) or the life of Jesus. (Just as the legends of the man now called Robin Hood have long ago abandoned the truth of the events they chronicle) "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 22, 2008 3:54 PM:

" To 110100100

You state, "As the millennia have gone by, we have replaced mysticism with reason and science."

The problem I have with that point of view is reason and science have limitations. Both rely on our ability to observe and interact with the world through our 5 senses.

An old saying comes to mind......you don't know what you don't know. Perhaps there is more to our existance than you can comprehend through your 5 senses? "

Carrie82 wrote on Jul 22, 2008 3:17 PM:

" ugggg.......i cant even read this article.... just the title makes me sick!!!!!! "

110100100 wrote on Jul 22, 2008 3:08 PM:

" Tom Terrific - First of all, the Bible is not the Word of God. Even a believer, such as yourself, has to come to terms with the fact that the books that comprise the Bible were written by men, not God himself. So at it’s very best, the Bible is a proxy word of God. It is ultimately nothing but hearsay (of extraordinary events).

That said, we can discuss the fact that the Bible is 2000 years old (the OT is almost 3000). This time it was written was a time period when gods regularly intermingled with mankind. Zeus coupled with a human woman who gave birth to Hercules, just as the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary (or so an angel told Joseph in a dream). It was not that uncommon for people to declare themselves as gods, such as Caesar himself did. It should come as no surprise that impressionable fools quickly bought into the notion of salvation since they were told the alternative was Hell.

As the millennia have gone by, we have replaced mysticism with reason and science. Indeed, the Bible is becoming nothing more absurd stories. Some of them having value, others having none. "

KingSalmon wrote on Jul 22, 2008 2:55 PM:

" RE: "Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 22, 2008 9:41 AM:"

I don't understand that whole "It is easier for a camel to get thru the eye of a needle..." concept when it seems all one has to do in the Christian faith is ask forgiveness and accept Christ as their personal savior- which is what?... maybe a 14 second process? Be you mass-muderer/child-butcher, rapist or what have you.

I personally don't buy it- not even when I was a l'il tyke faking it in Sunday School did I really even believe it. So what gives? Is everyone in church like me? Were they/are they just faking it too- holding out and hoping that what makes no sense actually turns out to be the truth?

I see the Bible as no different than any other flawwed book of fiction from historic times- that reflects the lore, logic and laws of the day... a very outdated piece of literature that everyone picks and chooses from- even those who preach against selective interpretation of it. "

Carl0214 wrote on Jul 22, 2008 2:17 PM:

" GotFaith, you are absolutely right.
I'd like to add, the Bible IS the basis for all the laws and morality we do have. And don't give me the separation of Church and State stuff, no one understands that correctly anymore thanks to the press. There is nothing that says we will separate the two; it says Congress shall make no LAW with respect to religion (ie, no national religion, such as England has - Anglican). Our forefathers had their Christian failings too, definitely (slavery is a good example) BUT what would be the basis for morality and current laws without the Bible? "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 22, 2008 12:14 PM:

" Cats - The truth is, you'll never come to know that the "myth" is true if you try to figure it out with your head. God works in the heart and soul of a person. When you search for Him with your heart and soul, you find Him, and it all becomes clear in your head. "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 22, 2008 11:19 AM:

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 22, 2008 11:16 AM:

" To 110100100. Is there something wrong with the fact it was said 2000 years ago? Heaven and earth will pass away but Gods word will live forever. "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 22, 2008 11:15 AM:

" Cats - I've seen comments from you on other blogs, my perception is you like and study history. I often wonder if your references to the Bible and Jesus as mythical are just to insult Christians (big "C" intended), or do you honestly not realize the historical value the Bible.

My faith is based on the belief that Jesus was the Son of God and rose from the dead. I wasn't there, I didn't see it. But I do read the testimonies of men who walked with Jesus, believed in Jesus, and were murdered because of their belief. Paul is the best example. The man was a die-hard Jew, hated and murdered Christians. But later converted and gave up his own life to follow Jesus. Why? For a myth? "

110100100 wrote on Jul 22, 2008 10:28 AM:

" Tom Terrific - yep, Paul said the same thing... 2000 years ago. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 22, 2008 9:41 AM:

" What seperates Chrisitanity from every other religion in the world? In Chrisitanity, there is no 12 step program into heaven. People are saved by grace. Evidence of a Creator is seen in creation. Jesus came to save the sinner, not the righteous. The Lord will return. He is not slow as some understand slowness. He is patient not wanting anyone to perish. In the final days, there will be a falling away from the faith and the love of many will grow cold. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 22, 2008 9:12 AM:

" And for the US resembling Middles Eastern countries? What happens if the fundamentalist movement gets in power and starts passing laws?

The differences between Christian and Islamic faiths are not that great. The NT softens the message of fire and brimstone from the OT, but it doesn’t cancel it out. The rules for stoning to death, when and who you can murder, rape, kill, pillage, plunder, who can have multiple wives and who can’t (basically bishops and higher in the church can only have one), slavery as a good thing, who needs to be killed in what way for what sin, and the encouragement to be the majority faith in any area either by weeding or breeding is in both the bible and quran.

So no, I don’t think any one single religion should be the basis for the laws of any nation. It would get ugly. *part 2 of 2* "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 22, 2008 9:11 AM:

" Sandy –

What I was trying to say is if you let any one single religion (even mine) be the basis of how a nation governs, its laws, etc. eventually the religion corrupts itself. Look what Christianity brought to human history when they had an incredibly heavy hand on the monarchs of Europe. Same thing with kings and queens in day of old forcing their views and desires on all of their subjects. That’s why this nation was set up with a balance of power system. To prevent any one party or person from becoming a monarch or dictator. Telling everyone else how to live, what to believe.
*part 1 of 2* "

old biker wrote on Jul 21, 2008 11:18 PM:

" Cats: I answered your question will you honor my request? I cannot speak for Mike Baker but I do know him to be a thoughtful, honorable, sincere man. I would suggest to you that you contact him for answers to the questions you have about what he does and does not do. He will, I'm certain, treat you with respect in spite of the things you've posted.

P.S. I don't think that God takes vacations but I do know He takes days off.
How 'bout it? Pick a place. "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:55 PM:

" I don't know when, where or how folks ever started confusing liberal/conservative with Christian/Non-Christian.

Many Christians are bleeding-heart liberals, and many conservatives roll their eyes at churchy Christians. You all DO get that, don't you?

So why all the screwy confusion? Use your heads and the good sense God gave you, for crying out loud! "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:49 PM:

" RE: "Conservative wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:40 PM:"

Where short-sighted folks like CONSERVATIVE keep continuing to fall short time and time again is in their long-time false perceptions about others, and how they continuously lump groups together. Conservative writes: "All those non-believers, cynics, liberal God haters, homosexuals, and so on"... Well, here's how he's incorrect. I belong to ONE of these groups- though I won't say which one. And I am about as far from the others as one can be... yet still for covenience, or for some strange self-serving reason he continues to keep lumping all these people together. WHY? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:17 PM:

" To Old Biker...thanks for answering my question...why won't your fellow believers stand up. As to what more you should do...stand up and demand your church protest this war and the death penalty. Ask Pastor Mike why he preaches hate against homosexuals, writes letters to the editor, and then refuses to defend his words (after days of posting he then syas he is on vacation...did you god take vacations?). Ask him why he spent millions of dollars building a palace and does not house the homeless on cold winter nights. He is a hypocrite. I attended four services at Eastview...unlike your brethren I actually go and visit places before I write about them. I was in awe of the amazing amount of money wasted on a church (your god spoke in fields as I read the bible) and the amazing arrogance of Pastor Mike and the assembled as he preached hate and they lapped it up. You seem like too thoughtful a person to be involved with a group like them but I (unlike them) do not feel it is my place to tell you how to live your life. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 21, 2008 10:09 PM:

" To "say"...who's god? The one ion the Koran, or the Hindu "god", and on and on. I am not sure which is worse on here...the arrogance of the christians" on here who spout off but refuse to answer basic questions, or the arrogance of those who insist that their god is the only god. BTW christians...I still await answers to my questions. "

OLD BIKER wrote on Jul 21, 2008 8:41 PM:

" cats, I need an answer. "

utterly_amazed wrote on Jul 21, 2008 8:22 PM:

" Hmmm... foundation of our nation, let me think, as long as we get to pick and choose:

Matthew 19:9
Leviticus 19:19
Leviticus 20:9
Leviticus 20:18
Leviticus 25:44-45
Leviticus 19:27
Deuteronomy 15:1
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

It sure would be a different world.

I will have to ponder which way to lean on this one. "

sandy wrote on Jul 21, 2008 4:31 PM:

" Dear Westsidegirl,
You are mistaken if you think that you can compare all religions with the one(s) in the Middle East. Surely, you don't believe that we would have those same problems if your religion was the law of the land. "

ex flatlander wrote on Jul 21, 2008 3:58 PM:

" How arrogant is it to say that "religion" or "The Bible" should be the foundation of our nation. This stance is so arrogant as to not even claim which religion or which Bible. There are hundreds if not thousands of religions around the world, many of which are practiced right here in the US.

By putting religion at the foundation of the nation, you're argument demeans or ignores every other religion and the value of those religions to its followers. The forefathers left it out for a reason. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 3:05 PM:

" What I am arguing for is to not let any religion dictate secular law. Inspiration can be drawn from it, sure. Since a lot religions have an overall similar vein to them, it doesn’t really matter which one is used to draw the basics from –you’ll end up in about the same place. However….

If one particular religion is allow to make the laws of a land – that land will end up like some in the Middle East where you can be imprisoned or killed for not worshiping properly. *part 2 of 2* "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 3:04 PM:

" SpeakerOfTruth - What you say is true. There can be no evidence that supports the existence of any god, it is a fruitless venture. It just fun to watch those that claim their Jesus is the one, the only, uncontestable deity to not be able come up with any answer besides ‘the bible says so’.

However, even though I do not follow a Judeo-Christian tradition, I still have faith in a higher power. So I won’t knock anyone having ‘religion’. But I will knock those that think their religion is the only way to believe and everyone should follow it. You can’t prove yours, I can’t prove mine, they are equal. *part 1 of 2* "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 21, 2008 2:15 PM:

" WestSide, Malott, Meh, Reasonable and all the others: It's absolutely impossible for those of us who live in the real world, founded in reality as defined by science, to use actual, factual, provable evidence to argue the side of rational thought against opponents who can write off, literally, any argument by simply stating that it does not agree with what the invisible fairy-man sitting in the sky told a completely unknown person to write in a long-forgotten language 2,000 years ago, as translated thousands of times with millions of contradictions between various translations. It's like trying to use logic on a 2-year-old. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 21, 2008 12:37 PM:

" Mary was a virgin, so Jesus must have been divine. We know this because Joseph had a dream that an angel told him she was. No, an angel didn’t appear to him in person, he just dreamed it. No, Joseph didn’t write it down, someone else wrote down what Joseph dreamed 100 years later. No, Jesus didn’t write any of it down either. No, the people who wrote it down never even actually met Jesus. No, they never even met his parents or disciples. What? This sounds like a load of crap? Well… you’re going to Hell and I’m not! There’s your proof! "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 11:13 AM:

" By the way, just as a reminder to those that may or may not respond to my earlier statements....

I don't question the validity of your god or your beliefs. If you want to believe in a Judeo-Christian tradition, go for it. But there are millions of people in this country that do not follow that dogma.

You wouldn’t want another religion’s dogma to be the basis of laws, so why do you expect them to accept yours as the basis for them?

That is why I am glad that currently, the laws of this nation are made by our legislative branch to serve the interests of all Americans, not just the Christian ones. And hopefully they will continue to be indefinitely.

Bill Mallot - I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Because anyone or anything that ‘rules’ using fear of punishment, torture, or incarceration (purgatory and hell) is a dictator, not a leader. And quite frankly I’d rather freely follow a good leader then cower and meekly follow a punitive dictator. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:46 AM:

" Ooops, a couple more I would like to respond too…

MRS. - you live by your religion, I’ll live by mine. Your life might be full, but I wonder of what. It should be of love and respect for others, not fire and brimstone if they don’t walk the same line you do. Ultimately, we can only be responsible for our own souls. I wouldn’t like to see your religion ruling this nation any more then you would like to see mine.

Conservative - Your July 21, 12:14am response to The Cats - You’ve got to me kidding me right? This is what you come up with in response?

Say - only one religion, huh? That’s news to me. I thought there were lots of them. And they all have prophets that said their way was the only way. We all chose the religion that works for us or the one we are taught and never question. Either way, I will have no problem standing before my god on the day of judgment –simply because I believe I will stand before my god and not yours. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:44 AM:

" The Cats – the reason why they can’t cant protest the war is that although there is “Thou shall not kill” in the 10 commandments, the rest of their good book provides all kinds of reasons on why a good Christian can murder, rape and pillage to his hearts content as long as it is on a ‘foreign nation’. There are actually about 100 contradictory statements in the bible. A very consistent, omniscient god they have there.

Also, I’ve asked the same question of some of the same people many times and they can never come up with anything but scripture quotes or ‘because god said so’ as a response. They got nothing’ as proof and don’t want to admit it.
*part 3 of 3* "

let's be reasonable wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:43 AM:

" " " Larry Hunter states:

"I'm a lifelong Republican - a supply-side conservative. I worked in the Reagan White House. I was the chief economist at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce for five years. In 1994, I helped write the Republican Contract with America. I served on Bob Dole's presidential campaign team and was chief economist for Jack Kemp's Empower America.
This November, I'm voting for Barack Obama.
When I first made this decision, many colleagues were shocked. How could I support a candidate with a domestic policy platform that's antithetical to almost everything I believe in? The answer is simple: Unjustified war and unconstitutional abridgment of individual rights vs. ill-concei "

Bill Malott wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:42 AM:

" And if that day comes I'll be happy to spend all eternity in hell because I would rather be there than in heaven with a God that can't appreciate me for having my own ideas while I was on Earth.

I have no desire to live in a heaven with a god that isn't open-minded enough to look past their own knowledge and power. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:41 AM:

" Tom T. – no one would want to bring up the fact that the Washington monument looks like an asherah pole (a pagan symbol). They also probably don’t won’t to realize that a lot of Christian traditions and symbols are based on stolen pagan ones. They were doing their best to make the force feeding of their religion more tolerable to those they were converting, mainly during the Crusades. The old ‘if you can’t breed them out, you weed them out’ theory. Worked well for them in the Middles ages. Seems there are still some good christians around today that wished they could still practice that.
*part 2 of 3* "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 21, 2008 9:40 AM:

" I’ve been away for awhile, so here is a little montage of responses:

DK61727 – What empirical evidence surrounds us? Let alone insurmountable? If there is so much please provide examples- so as you say, my ‘brain-dead’ mind can comprehend it. By the way, why do you always call me names or insult me when I ask a question that you don’t like or don’t really want to answer? On this thread and others you have done it. Nasty habit you have there. Not very Christian of you. Perhaps you should practice what you preach. Oh, wait… you are. *part 1 of 3* "

say wrote on Jul 21, 2008 8:58 AM:

" these comments on here are funny. One day everyone will die.. one day u will stand before god.. One day he will say well done my faithful servant.... or he will say be gone I never new you.. U will either enter heaven or hell. Its not very hard to figure out. If u dont believe in Jesus or the bible that is u choice. But one day u Will stand before god and its either heaven or hell! Jesus loves us all and wants us to repent and live for him. No sin is greater than the other. In the end times what is going on here on these blogs will get worse. People turning on one another. Religion coming into play. false teaching. There is only 1 RELIGION... that is having a relationship with Jesus Christ! It doesnt matter if u are catholic, lutheran. methodist... Giving u life to jesus and living for him is what matters.. Whether u believe in the bible is u choice like I said before... But someday u will have to stand before God. "

let's be reasonable wrote on Jul 21, 2008 12:54 AM:

" Conservative, this is really a lame reply:

" To "The Cats": What exactly do you want answered? Maybe you should try attending church or see a priest for the answers you crave so much. There is a bright side though, you sure can quote scripture but of course only to satisfy the liberal points you're trying to make. However, by all means, keep reading scripture, maybe some of it will stick. " "

Conservative wrote on Jul 21, 2008 12:14 AM:

" To "The Cats": What exactly do you want answered? Maybe you should try attending church or see a priest for the answers you crave so much. There is a bright side though, you sure can quote scripture but of course only to satisfy the liberal points you're trying to make. However, by all means, keep reading scripture, maybe some of it will stick. "

old biker wrote on Jul 20, 2008 8:05 PM:

" " It's been more than a day since I wrote and defined my feelings about the war and the death penalty. I've answered your challenge cats. Will you honor my request to meet in person? Jimmy Choo you can come along. Bring Meh and lol liberal. I really would enjoy meeting you all. I'll go where you pick. Bars, parks, coffehouses, highway rest areas. You name it I'll try to make it happen. Contact Eastview. Your anonimty will be protected and respected. " "

OLD BIKER wrote on Jul 19, 2008 6:04 PM:

" " I am against the war and have been since before the first boot hit the ground. I make no bones about it. Even in the face of the "you're not supporting the troops" B.S. logic. I was against the war that was raging when I served also. I stand without flinching against the death penalty. In ALL cases. Lock 'em up 'til they die. What should I do? Stand on a corner and wave a sign? Write my representatives yet again? My God explains, very clearly, about war and death. I read the book. I understand it. As for the founders of our nation, they did what they did because they did. I think a lot of it has to do with the human nature to go and explore and conquer. The documents that outline our beginnings were worded in a way that the framers believed could be understood by subsequent generations. Not, I'm certain, to be used as ammo in a cyber crap flinging fest two hundred years down the road.
Cats and Jimmy Choo and anyone else PLEASE contact Eastview. They'll hook us up. Face to face would be better. Peace, honestly, peace. " "

The Cats wrote on Jul 19, 2008 10:55 AM:

" My posts still go unanswered by you christians (you have earned a small "c"). You spout off and go on and on but you can't answer simple questions. Hypocrites. Stand up for what you believe (and demand that we believe) and refute my words. Otherwise they stand unrefuted and proof that you all are just talk. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 19, 2008 10:52 AM:

" To Conservative...all "god haters" are liberals? Your post proves up what a majority of people on here believe. You preach a god of hatred. That is not what you book of mythology states. LOL. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 19, 2008 10:50 AM:

" To MRS...nice try but you did not answer my question. I will ask it again and again just to watch you doge and ignore it while preaching like a dime store minister. Why are you personally not out protesting the war...Thou Shall Not Kill is the word of your god. Why aren't you out doing his work. As to whether I am a sinner...you are passing judgment on me without knowing the first thing about me. "Vengeance is mine says the lord"..."judge not least ye shall be judged" your gods words. Why are you sinning so? Why won't you answer my questions? Hypocrite. "

Meh wrote on Jul 19, 2008 1:10 AM:

" Conservative, I'm not concerned. My faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is strong and He will judge me right. My concern is for your soul, that you will not be able to enjoy the beer volcano and stripper factory with me. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 18, 2008 10:36 PM:

" We are in a battle. Satan will never own us but he puts stumbling blocks in our path all the time. Thise is one of those times and I have allowed him to win this battle. That said, we all lose a battle every now and then but we know how the war ends. As for me not answering you right away, I don;t sit in front of a computer every waking hour. My life is to full for that. Thank you, have a wonderful evening, God is still God, good evening. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 18, 2008 10:30 PM:

" You answer your own questions with ridiculous posts like if God doesn't change His mind' If God had not sent Jesus we were doomed because of our sin. Of course I have faith. We have faith; if we didn’t have faith and believe what God says there wouldn't be much of a point in anything. The cold hard truth is people like you have your eyes covered as if to say if will lead my own life because I actually like my sin and don't want to give it up. We all did at one point. Then there are those like Meh that say I won't believe and if I don't believe it isn't true for me. God is real, Jesus is real and there will be an accounting for what we have and have not done. It is amazing how people can believe in God but deny the other 2/3 of the Godhead. the only thing I can say is I know God is real, you can’t experience God until you come to Him through His Son Jesus. As Christians we see every day what god has done.cont: "

Conservative wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:40 PM:

" To All those non-believers, cynics, liberal God haters, homosexuals, and so on. It really doesn't matter if you believe or not. But when your day comes as it does for everyone, I would hate to be on the side of non-belief. But you people keep living in your elitist bubble. Just as you don't want our beliefs forced on you, you wouldn't mind if you didn't rub yours on us believers would you? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:23 PM:

" To MRS...you keep posting I keep responding and you keep ignoring my questions. Why? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:22 PM:

" Funny...not 1 christian on these pages has addressed my comments...

" To Peanut..."The Bible teaches that murder is wrong." Actually the bible (a great book of mythology) states "Thou Shall Not Kill". Why aren't you on these pages, in the churches, and in the streets protesting the war? I have posed this question on every thread about the bible on these pages and not one "christian" (I reserve a capital "C" for those who earn it) has responded. Why not? "

No answers for the hard questions. No wonder you are treated as irrelevant. If you can't answer the simple questions how will you ever manage the difficult ones? Hypocrites...as one poster said...your god is a god of vengenence...you will rue the day you refuse to follow his plan. LOL at all of you. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:15 PM:

" MRS...god doesn't change his mind? So he still believes women should be subservient? Shame on you for speaking out...go back to being silent. You are breaking his rules. Hypocrite...LOL at you sillyness. BTW you have a different ending fro the world than does your bible. Who is right? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:12 PM:

" To MRS...all anyone on here is asking for is proof of this mythical jesus. You have none...it is called faith. The radical Muslims believe we are infidels. They have faith as well. They are willing (suicide bombers) to die for their faith. Why is their belief any worse than yours? You simply ignore the hard questions (as do most "believers" at least as witnessed on here). "

Wild at Heart wrote on Jul 18, 2008 3:58 PM:

" Right........whatever Thomas Paine says is obviously indisputable. I mean, he's....ahh....ummmm.....ahhhhh.....Thomas Paine. Yeah. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 18, 2008 3:41 PM:

" To my knowledge he was imprisoned only once… in France… during the French Revolution… for supporting the Revolution. Again, I challenge you to read his works Age of Reason and Examination of Prophecies. It is only natural that people were, and continue to be, offended by his works. He exposes the great lie that so many have dedicated their lives to.

If you are unable to read it, take it to your Sunday school teacher and have him read it to you. It should, at the very least, amuse you, in much the same way the Bible amuses me. You can find it on the internet. Or you can do what a child does when frightened by the truth: close your eyes, plug your ears, and scream “la la la” as the tears trickle down your cheeks. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 18, 2008 2:30 PM:

" Jesus is not a lie 110100100 however since paine is such a fan of yours how many times was he in prison? Why did only a few people attend his funeral? Because of his views about God. Wow, another example that this country was indeed founded on Christianity. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 18, 2008 1:14 PM:

" MRS. - Google: Examination of Prophecies by Thomas Paine. He lays out with great detail how the New Testament writers lied to their audiences and more or less proves that Jesus was no God, no Son of God, no Messiah, no nothing. Just another Jew that the Romans tacked to a tree like they did to countless thousands of others. Read it. The Bible is no “Word of God” and your Messiah is dead and has been for 2000 years. He is not coming back. Period. Having faith in a lie does not change the fact that it is a lie. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 18, 2008 8:57 AM:

" SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 17, 2008 3:43 PM: So? "

Nice comeback, genius. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 17, 2008 11:09 PM:

" Right now we are at the point were we are talking about chipping everyone. It is a chip but that chip has to have a number to track. We are turning our backs on God and God will stop it in his time and I believe that time is near. God does not change, people change. Is revelation the end? It all depends on what you mean by the end. The end of the world? No, the world will never end. Jesus will set up his kingdom in Jerusalem and will be the ruler of the world. It will be the end to Satan and those that chose to follow him. Actually, even that won’t end, it is eternal. Some say we must hate people that refuse to follow God. We don't. As I said there comes to turn them over to a reprobate mind and go on. I don't understand what you mean about the church progressing. If you mean keeping in time with digressing morality no, like I said, God doesn't change and he doesn't " change his mind" regardless what secular law does. The important thing is there is time to accept Jesus. "

bill malott wrote on Jul 17, 2008 10:11 PM:

" 'MRS' - You make mention of someone mentioning that the Bible was written in chronological order and that's the way the Church has progressed. Does this mean that the Church has not progressed in centuries? While I'd like to take the humorous opinion that it hasn't, I really believe it has. It certainly didn't reach any perfection along the way. And what about Revelation? Is that the end? Then where in the Bible are we right now? If it isn't the end but a scripture of past then where in the past was that?

I mean no harm with my questions but it seems that if that's how you'd like to interpret the Bible, then it should be a living document and it should have been amended and added to all these years instead of being the same thing for so long. Because the Church and Christians have changed quite a bit in the past quarter century, let alone several centuries. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 17, 2008 7:40 PM:

" Now isn't it just wonderful that Jesus came and stopped the rituals? We no longer have to do those things you are so eager to take out of context. I can't remember if it was here or someplace else but one wise woman pointed out that the Bible is in Chronological order and things have progressed in that order.We have came from the start (creation) to the point I believe where the world is completely turning it's back on God. You know those that want us to turn our backs in Isreal? That is also in the Bible. Hang on, it will happen.These are exciting times for those that love the Lord Amen? Have you seen the new Barbie yet? I am sure there are some of you that just can't wait to get it for your children. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 17, 2008 7:16 PM:

" Is no one going to mention that the Washington monument looks like an ashera(sp?) pole "

let's be reasonable wrote on Jul 17, 2008 6:13 PM:

" "Leviticus also says..."

It is amazing how the religious right only picks biblical phrases that suit their wishes and disallow or look the other way when passages suggest ideas which do not conform to contemporary U.S. society or are contrary such as buying or owning slaves. I thought every single word of the Bible was the absolute truth! "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 17, 2008 4:08 PM:

" Darlene... Leviticus also says "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard" and "...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you" and "...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material" and "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you" and "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."

But I bet you don't preach about the evils of trimmed beards, eating pork, planting, mixed textile cloth, or shellfish. And, I bet you don't have any slaves, either (although I guess you think it would be perfectly hunky-dory fina and dandy if you did...) "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 17, 2008 3:43 PM:

" DK61727 said: " The Washington Monument is the tallest building in Washington, D.C., our nation's capital; the law prohibits any building in D.C. to be higher. When the Sun arises every morning the FIRST RAY OF SUNLIGHT falls on the aluminum cap of the Washington Monument, where there is written just two words: 'Laus Deo', Latin for the English: 'Praise be to God'. "

So? "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 17, 2008 3:36 PM:

" DK61727 said: "Empirical evidence? You'd have to be brain-dead not to recognize the insurmountable empirical evidence previously exhibited anywhere and everywhere in this country, from the totality of early American history with our founding documents, right up to the present time. "

Oh, you mean like this evidence, a quote from John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

or James Madison:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

or Thomas Jefferson:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

and more Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

Yup, sounds like they wanted this to be a "christian" nation.... Ha ha ha! "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 17, 2008 3:24 PM:

" What am I to do if they choose the catholic model as the bible to use as the foundation of the nation? Baptism by sprinkling as a baby means all my kids rot in hell? But, if I don't... I go to jail...

There is a reason we have separation of church and state in this country. And, the reason has as much to do with keeping the government out of your church as it does keeping the church out of the government. "

SpeakerOfTruth wrote on Jul 17, 2008 3:24 PM:

" Please be more specific... Which Bible? And, what form of christianity would you like to be the drfining form forced upon the population by the government? Catholic? Baptist? Mormon? Do you want the government to dictate that everybody MUST be baptized? What age? At birth? The "age of accountability"? And what age is that, 10, 13 or maybe 15? And does the government mandate that all religious services must have musical instruments or must not?

Because, see, the christian sect in which I was raised said that you had to be baptized at some undefined "age of accountability" and that all religious services must NOT have musical instruments involved and anyone who attended any church that did either thing differently was a den of sin and everyone attending would burn in hell. So, catholics... better get ready to burn. Same with baptists. Mormons... Ha Ha Ha! "

Sandy wrote on Jul 17, 2008 10:19 AM:

" Thanks, Meh, you almost got my point. If the parents of the child were the married ones, it would make everything much less complicated for the state. Hence, it makes sense for the state to be concerned about the marriage of parents, but beyond that is there really any need for concern? "

Meh wrote on Jul 17, 2008 8:54 AM:

" Sandy, actually, you're wrong. Unmarried couples who conceive are equally as responsible as married couples for their offspring. And in some strange cases, even a sperm donor has been sued for child support and has had to pay. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 16, 2008 9:05 PM:

" Today in North Carolina a group of self proclaimed "christians" led a march on the state legislature. Their purpose...to stop an anti-bullying bill. Why...according to them it might be used to help homosexual youths who are randomly attacked...and you wonder why people reject your attempts to take over our government. BTW not one church leader in that state has rejected these people. What a sad life they must lead...living in hate. "

Sandy wrote on Jul 16, 2008 4:00 PM:

" The law allowing for the marriage of one woman and one man places resposibility for the care of their children. Hence, the punishment should neglect be observed. Other unions, such as two women would not have children, therefore allowing or banning marriage is just plain silly. "

Bill Malott wrote on Jul 16, 2008 12:45 PM:

" 'The Peanut Gallery' - I've not mentioned it on this thread yet, but on my original letter (in which this is a response to) I mentioned that it's a matter of those laws being relevant. Having a law preventing people from killing others is very relevant to the safety and well-being of our nation. There are other laws based on the Bible that also make sense and are relevant.

I feel (and I doubt I'm alone) that new laws should not be based on any religion and old laws should be reviewed on their relevance. It doesn't take a long review to see that a law on killing is very relevant. A law preventing a homosexual couple from having a civil union or marriage on the other hand? I've yet to see how this benefits our city, state, or nation. You have your personal opinion that it's wrong, but I have my own opinion that no religion is worth the time and effort to pursue. Does this mean that I should outlaw some of your freedoms? I'll answ

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