Pantagraph.com | Letters | Preaching word of God takes courage these days

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

normaldad wrote on Jul 31, 2008 3:37 PM:

" "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools." -- Bumper sticker "

normaldad wrote on Jul 31, 2008 3:36 PM:

" JimmyChooGirl: Have you considered that maybe it's modern society that is out of touch with the Bible?

Also, for those of you who are adamently opposed to Christianity... Are you not being guilty of the intollerance that you are accusing Christians of?

God loves you just as you are. But he also loves you too much to want you to stay that way. "

normaldad wrote on Jul 31, 2008 3:31 PM:

" Kevin: A pasture is a place to keep cows. The fields are teaching these days, apparently... Well the bible does say "The rocks will cry out" :) "

Shiyane wrote on Jul 31, 2008 1:25 PM:

" I think its funny when people who call people "bible thumpers" claim to know more about the bible than the ones they are calling "bible thumpers" kind of defeats your statement does it not? How many actual bible scholars are there here? I am mean scholar as in you have a degree because you studied the bible in a college(yes there are such degrees) or have actual degrees in the study of hewbrew text? "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:58 PM:

" Controller wrote on Jul 30, 2008 2:21 PM: " If God is all knowing, didn't he know before we were born whether we would accept him? God then knows that some are born into this world without any hope of salvation. Doesn't sound like free will to me... "

Don't equate omniscience with predestination. God gave YOU a free will, like everyone else. YOU have the option of doing whatever YOU want with YOUR free will. While it is absolutely true that God is omniscient, that merely means that God knows ultimately all the choices YOU will have made with your own free will. But, the choices are still yours and not His.

God does not pre-program each of our lives and choices for us. God is not a puppetmaster making all our moves for us, nor a playwright with a inflexible script for each of our lives. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 3:29 PM:

" Controller - Indeed. God would have known that Lucifer would rebel against him before he was created, and would therefore know that Lucifer would go on to betray a third of the angels, as well as mankind, yet we bear all of the responsibility. If we are to believe the Bible then we must believe that God and Satan have a mutual understanding and/or relationship. This is evident in the book of Job, where they make a friendly wager to see how much torture one of God’s most righteous could take before snapping. (Old Testament justice for you). From day one till judgment day, Satan is allowed to influence us. Our only hope for salvation is through a man who was executed 2000 years ago.

This, of course, is all nonsense. If there is a God, we are likely nothing more than a smudge on His petri dish. And if we were made in His image, then our sin was made in His image as well. "

Controller wrote on Jul 30, 2008 2:21 PM:

" If God is all knowing, didn't he know before we were born whether we would accept him? God then knows that some are born into this world without any hope of salvation. Doesn't sound like free will to me... "

MRS. wrote on Jul 30, 2008 2:05 PM:

" RE:PWNZILLA: Very true and thank you. I had that but must have deleted it. Thank you again. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 30, 2008 2:03 PM:

" No,110100100, it means God gave you free will to do as you wish. If you choose not to believe God then by default you are allowing satan. You don't have to have a pentagram in the center of your house or kill animals or wear black robes or any thing else. Simply by not accepting God's gift of free salvation through His Son Jesus satan has you.
God says there are only two paths. If you don’t believe that then there isn’t really anything I can add. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 30, 2008 1:27 PM:

" 110100100:
Wow, you sure show your intollerance in that post don't you. You need to accept that not everyone is going to believe you. Not everyone is going to think like you or side with you. Not everyone is going to appreciate you shoving Thomas Paine books down their throats. You need to learn to agree to disagree with them. That pretty much goes for everyone including me. I do not post my beliefs on here and there is a reason for that. This is a debate not a mud slinging contest. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:45 PM:

" MRS – If Satan has anyone by the tail, doesn’t that mean Bible God has allowed it, if not advocated it? It seems ironic to me that most Christians are comfortable believing that Satan has conquered more souls than Christ has saved (since only about 1/3 of the world’s population is Christian, and judging from the comments on here, it’s far less than that).

From an outside perspective, Bible God and Satan are both personifications of man’s own desires. Since people are often intolerant, it only makes sense that their God would share this intolerance and only allow a specific group into Heaven. Since people desire to conquer other’s land (Canaan), it makes sense that God would instruct them to do so. And of course God has to have a counterpart we can blame our faults on, so we say Satan is the deceiver. He is the one making you think differently from me, and therefore, I’m justified to treat you differently. "

PWNZILLA wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:57 AM:

" Minister Joe Wright was asked to open
the session of Kansas Senate, expecting the usual generalities, this is what they heard:
Father, we come to ask
your forgiveness and to seek your direction and
guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those
who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we
have done.
We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed
our values.
We have exploited the poor and called it
the lottery.
We have rewarded laziness and called it
welfare.
We have killed our unborn and called it
choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it
justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our
children and called it building self esteem.
We have abused power and called it
politics.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions
and called it ambition.
We have polluted the air with profanity and
pornography and called it freedom of expression.
We have ridiculed the time-honored values
of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:29 AM:

" What really takes courage is if you believe something other then a Judeo-Christian doctrine and you speak up about that. Or don’t believe anything at all. Then you are labeled as weird, fringe, a satan worshipper, sinner, witch, etc. Just because you believe in something other then god or Jesus. I mean really all religions are about belief in something that cannot be proved? Why do people insist their religion has any more validity then the next?

I find it ironic that we are a nation that prides itself on its independence and freedoms but the majority of its citizens are so uncomfortable with anyone who is different from them that they try to ostracize, demonize, or minimize their importance to society. *part 2 of 2* "

WestSideGirl wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:29 AM:

" Nice to see we are all capable of a nice debate. *snort* Really people, let’s try to get this conversation back on track and stop with the insults – from both sides.

Preaching the word of God does not take courage in this country, especially in this region, it never has. This country is and has always been predominantly Christian.

You can preach almost anywhere you like. Really there are only three places you can’t to it at anytime you like: in someone else’s home (unless they ask you too), at work, or in public building unless invited too.

You can do it in your church, you can do it in your home, you can do it in your car, you can do it on television, you can do it over the radio, you can even do it on the street corner – almost anywhere you like and no one will say anything to you. They might not listen, but they don’t try to stop you.
*part 1 of 2* "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:22 AM:

" the cats(you soo earn that small "c")
Wow, we shall all bow your infinate wisdom. Oh great one please explain it ALL to us inferior pheasants (can you smell the sarcasim?)

Where in my posts did you read I support Christian murder..oh oh I know..NOWHERE!

another one where in my posts did you see me connect believing the bible with terrorist attacks..again NOWHERE!

in all your infinate wisdom(ohh more sarcasm) oh great one(even more lovely sarcasm) why do you feel the need to spout off incorrect info to people.

Mrs:
I like your post its funny..better make it whole milk so hopefully he/she goes and curls up in the corner for a nap lol "

MRS. wrote on Jul 29, 2008 11:40 PM:

" Wow, satan has a cats by the tail. Will someone get that kitty some milk before he/she pops a gasket. "

Old Biker wrote on Jul 29, 2008 11:08 PM:

" cats: I'm done trying to engage you in any kind of civil manner. You consistently dodge my question/request while repeating the same lines ad nauseum. Get over yourself and try really try to understand that Christians are just people. Complete with all the faults and foibles that people everywhere possess. You need to calm down and just live and let live 'fore you blow a vessel. That's it. I done with you. "

TwentyTwo wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:35 PM:

" Your words the cats, your words! LOL! Bush is the only one that can be proven, as well as admitted. The others, youre off your rocker! LOL! The only reason why proof is requested from you is because all you do is fire off opinions attempting to portray them as facts! They are not, so you're called on the carpet! Many people have asked you for proof, so just do it and quit whining! "

Cubfan24 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:17 PM:

" It's the WMDs!!!!!!!! "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:54 PM:

" Finally, Cats has come out of hiding. I have never been ok with what happened on 9/11 and I never once said it was an inside job like you. As for war, lets put it at a level even you might be able to understand. Do you lock the door to your home or auto? Even in our own country we must safeguard ourselves, family and our goods. How much more true this is for nations with conflicting cultures and philosophies. As for abortion, didn't the woman have a right to choose birth control pills, condoms or abstinence? These seem alot cheaper than an abortion. "

The Cat wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:53 PM:

" cats: Bundy, Gacy, and McVey never claimed any Christian motivation for their crimes so what is the connection to religion? McVey’s motive was anti-government; Gacy’s (a homosexual and local Donkey party activist) was sexual; and Bundy was an out and out sociopath. Hardly on a par of committing suicide or chopping off heads for allah and entrance into “paradise”. The original Crusades were in response to muslim threats to Europe and earlier massacres of Christians in the Mideast, North Africa, and Spain earlier in the immediate post “prophet” period. The majority of the Crusades were against pagans and invading threats like the Tartars but some were against heretics and Eastern Orthodox. Except for some aspects of Crusades against the later two targets most were justified for real non-religious reasons with the Crusade designation being more to attract armies rather than religious intentions. The Inquisition is a very mixed bag if you do some research. Part is actually an ecclesiastical trial, part in Spain was related to the Spanish monarchy attempting to maintain political control, and part real religious persecution. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 9:00 PM:

" How disappointing! Pastor Mike drops in to write such inanities as "what is the truth"...without explaining it. He posts on and off but continues to dodge the questions from a non believer like me. Wonder why? With his intelligence and vast knowledge of the scriptures he should be able to humiliate me off these pages (as should his followers as they learn at his feet) yet he won't even engage in the debate. Hypocrisy at it's finest...his god (according to their book of mythology) didn't run from a fight but Pastor Mike sure does. LOL. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:54 PM:

" Tom writes...

"" Cats. Moses and the Israelites had the 10 commandments. Including the one that says thou shall not kill. How exactly did they take control of the promised land?

So your god...the one who the so called christians on here say they follow (and who quote his book of mythology over and over) was just kidding with "Thou shall not kill". Someone much more erudite than me said it best...

"smapdi wrote on Jul 18, 2008 11:47 AM:
" ...The Bible is as bad as statistics in that you can prop them up to support or decry almost anything you'd like. See what you want, ignore the rest. Come back later and maybe change your mind. It's ala carte dogma! " "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:51 PM:

" Tom writes...

"" Cats. It's not about what people think of concerning a war. War is a necessary evil. It's something that has to happen sometimes... As for the death penalty..., that doesn't erase the fact that people stil have to pay consequences for their actions. On to abortion. What did an innocent child ever do to that would require they be killed? I might take your anti war stance a little more seriously if you were not so anti life. "

It is exactly about what citizens think of war...how naive. Thou shall not kill...doesn't say unless it is a necessary evil does it? So you were OK with 9/11 as the terrorists thought to the depth of their being that we are infidels and they were justified..."necessary evil" right? To the death penalty so it is OK for the state to commit murder in revenge for a perceived (and occasionally incorrect) violation of norms of behavior? As to abortion...I am not in favor of killing children, I am in favor of a woman having a right to chose when the clump of cells in her body is not a functioning human. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:41 PM:

" Sweetcheeks writes...

"" Muslims in the middle east are not like the Muslims we have here, they are a peaceful bunch but the radical Muslims in the middle east think Christians do not have the right to live."

Are you saying ALL muslims in every Middle Eastern country think christians have to die? Have you studied the christians in the Middle East who kill muslims just because of their religion? Your assumptions are breathtaking. LOL. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:39 PM:

" Sweetcheeks writes...

"" Mrs:
I gladly stand corrected. I had complelty forgotten about him. Your post greatly strengthens mine. I would like 110100100 and the cats to tell me how those killings are justified and not religious based. "

Killings in the name of a mythological god are never justified...muslim or chrisitian. Why do you continue to defend murder by so called christians as justified. Honor killings are denounced by 99% of muslims as you did when rejecting Bush, McVey, et al saying they were not real christians. What is different from your rejection of "bad christians" and a Muslim's rejection of "bad Muslim's? As to MRS's comments she seems to think all Muslims are terrorists. If that were the case we would have been conquered 100's of years ago. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:34 PM:

" 110100100. Christianity and Islam are two different sets of beliefs. It must irritate you, the fact that the bible clearly states there is no merit system. You can't just whip out a list and say "Gee, if I do all these things, then I'll get to heaven." "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:34 PM:

" To MRS...never answers to the question if you believe in the bible why are you not out protesting the war...Thou shall not kill...remember? Is it because you cannot answer (it is OK to state it) or because to answer it in any way will reveal your philosophy for what it is? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:32 PM:

" Sweetcheeks writes...

"because if they were true Christians they never would have killed in the first place. You give me one example of Christians killing thousands by plotting a terrorist attack. " True christians do not kill? You can't be that naive. The Crusades and George Bush's preemptive war on Iraq (based on 935 lies regrading WMD's)...do you need more?

Sweetcheeks...so you are saying a terrorist act is the problem and not pre-emtive war? Your post is a little confusing to me. What does a terrorists act have to do with belief in the bible? Thou shall not kill (where does this phrase say terrorist attack?)? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:25 PM:

" To DK...can you not read who posts? LOL. Thou shall not kill then is a lie? If that is the case how many other lies are written in your bible. BTW what is your stance on Thou shall not kill? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:22 PM:

" 22...any proof that my words are not true...LOL? Is it your position that the leaders of the Crusades were not christians...LOL? McVey attended christian churches according to the testimony at the trial...look it up. Is it your position Bush ios not a christian? What a foolish post 22. As to your comment..."Or is this further conjecture on your part per usual and is just YOUR opinion? This is an opinion board 22...are you going to weigh in or just keep on taking pot shots? BTW where is your demand for proof from other posters...including those who say god is real. It is clear you post as a couple of people on these pages. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 6:14 PM:

" On “Honor Killings” - “And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.” Most should recognize this came from the Old Testament. Obviously some will argue that NT trumps OT, but that is a convenience for those who think God flip flops or amends His own word. Fortunately today, most Muslims, Jews, and Christians alike conveniently ignore this commandment. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 5:40 PM:

" On Muslims and Islam - Several of the last comments have dumped all Muslims into two categories: American Muslims and radical Muslims(everyone else). Some posters have simply dumped them all into the latter group. It is a sad example of the narrowest of perspectives. The vast majority of Muslims in both the Middle East and World in general are moderates who are tolerant of others and want nothing to do with radical Islam. Even Iraqi insurgents who fought against Americans came to their senses after faced with the alternative of al-Queada and chose to fight along side us instead.

What is so ironic is how similar Christianity is to Islam regarding the topic of homosexuality. They both branched from Judaism, worshiping the same god of Abraham and believing in the same Old Testament laws regarding sin and vice. Both have their conservatives, liberals, moderates, fundamentalists, and extremists. Most will profess their respective faiths but few will actually understand what it means to be faithful. Both are convinced that they alone will enter Heaven and that the rest of the planet is fodder for Hell; as if God had no sense at all. "

TwentyTwo wrote on Jul 29, 2008 3:53 PM:

" The Cats (Your words) wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:44 PM:
Timmothy McVey was a christian as were the leaders of the crusades and the Spanish inqusition. George Bush is a christian...and on and on. John Wayne Gacey was a christian as was Ted Bundy.

The Cats, ANY proof here? Or is this further conjecture on your part per ususal and is just YOUR opinion? IF true, how do you back these "facts up"?? "

Shiyane wrote on Jul 29, 2008 3:28 PM:

" I do beleive he/she said Radical Muslims and not the ones in America. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 29, 2008 2:46 PM:

" Whom ever replied to me. if you will read instead just dislike me( or is that hate) you would see I said I may be wrong I HOPE I am wrong AND most muslims just want to decent place to live,practise their religion and GET ALONG. Where did you get I said they are all like that? I did say if their religion is followed closely their religion calls for honor killing. I did not say they were all going to kill in the name of honor. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 29, 2008 2:41 PM:

" Both of your posts condradict each other. I am talking about radical muslims not the ones we have here. One of historys most patriotic American athletes was a muslim. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 2:17 PM:

" Tom Terrific - I am not an advocate of abortion nor am I an opponent to capitol punishment. Just as being a non-Christian does not make me an atheist, not being intolerant towards gays does not make me a liberal.

You can also feel at ease knowing that God’s way was probably not Moses’s. Moses telling the Israelites that their genocidal campaign was God’s will was no different than what any commander tells their soldiers when they bent on conquest.

MRS - Again, you are drawing conclusions from isolated incidents. It’s like claiming all priests are child molesters and all Mormons are polygamists. Ridiculous and untrue. Most Muslims are peaceful and moderate. Few want anything to do with the mujahedeen or honor killings. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 29, 2008 1:24 PM:

" Mrs:
I gladly stand corrected. I had complelty forgotten about him. Your post greatly strengthens mine. I would like 110100100 and the cats to tell me how those killings are justified and not religious based. "

MRS. wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:44 PM:

" While I agree there are some Muslims here in the states that just want a decent place to live, practice their religion and get along Sweetcheeks but you haven't heard there are several honor killing which is part of the Muslim belief. There is a Muslim man on trial now because he killed his daughter (here in the states) And I remember reading about a brother that killed his sister because she "dishonored” her family. I could be wrong, I hope I am wrong but it seems to me if they are practicing Muslims and that is part of their belief, any Muslim would carry out honor killings. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 29, 2008 12:40 PM:

" To 110100100. It doesn't strike you as strangely inconsistant that people would be for abortion on demand but against capital punishment? In response to Moses and the promised land, Gods ways are higher than my ways and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 11:45 AM:

" Some pathetic soul asked, "BTW why do christians support war and the death penalty but oppose abortion? "

Obviously, considering that question, when it comes to ignorance, some people hoard it while others get none. The question is insincere and is fomented by an instigator for no other purpose than to provoke an argument.

The scriptures place the responsibility to understand Christianity upon each and every individual. So, instigators, it is incumbant upon you to seek the truth for yourself. If you do that sincerely, you will be rewarded...that is God's promise.

That said, consider the following:

In reading the Bible, you will likely discover God is not generally opposed to wars, killing, and the death sentence. Quite the contrary. The Bible is a history book full of such examples of death permitted, advocated and even commanded by God. However, God positively correlates purposeful killing with guilt of the unrighteous.

Guilt is the one missing constituent in the killing process known as abortion. Every single abortion is committed against a totally innocent, defenseless, unborn/developing human being..........they are innocent victims of life-ending acts.....murder. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 29, 2008 11:17 AM:

" Muslims in the middle east are not like the Muslims we have here, they are a peaceful bunch but the radical Muslims in the middle east think Christians do not have the right to live. I ask you also, name one time Christians planed a terrorist attack that killed thousands of Muslims or any other religious group in the name of God. Muslims in the middle east have a history of using violence to convert people to their religion. "

CubFAN24 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 11:16 AM:

" Blah blah blah -- Sheep. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:54 AM:

" Tom Terrific - It doesn’t strike you as strangely inconsistent that God would command the Hebrews with “Thou shall not kill” and then order them to murder and enslave the indigenous peoples of the land of Canaan? The land you refer to as the “promise land.” "

110100100 wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:25 AM:

" Sweetcheeks - So when a group of evil men who, consider themselves to be Christians, commit horrible acts, you simply remove their Christian title. But when a handful of terrorists commit a horrible act, you seem comfortable with associating terrorism with all Muslims. Most Muslims do not recognize terrorists as true Muslims since it is against Islam to spill the blood of the innocent. "

Lifelong Learner wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:21 AM:

" Being a Christian has nothing to do with sexual orientation, not killing people or badgering the local pastor. Christianity is simply having God as your Father through accepting Jesus Christ.

The relationship, health, financial, personal growth, and eternal benefits of being a part of God’s family far out-weigh any results produced by any religion. The heart hunger of each of us for a divine daddy can not be satisfied by anything else. Father God longs for you and me. He longs for our hearts. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 29, 2008 10:05 AM:

" I for one do not support war or the death penalty. War is usually caused by what people think is right or wrong. The Iraq war was pure greed not a crusade for Christians. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:27 AM:

" Cats. Moses and the Israelites had the 10 commandments. Including the one that says thou shall not kill. How exactly did they take control of the promised land? Did they take it by force or did the people just hand it over to the Israelites without a fight? Maybe you think they received a fruit basket in exchange for every 15 acres of land. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:23 AM:

" Cats. It's not about what people think of concerning a war. War is a necessary evil. It's something that has to happen sometimes, I don't know anyone who wants to get shot at. As for the death penalty. While there is forgiveness of sin, that doesn't erase the fact that people stil have to pay consequences for their actions. On to abortion. What did an innocent child ever do to that would require they be killed? I might take your anti war stance a little more seriously if you were not so anti life. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:15 AM:

" the cats(small "c" earned)

Christians do NOT suport killing people. People can call George Bush a Christian but I do not call him one the way he suports big business, the very wealthy and his dishonesty about the Iraq war. As far as Timothy McVey, John Wayne Gacey. Spanish Crusade, Ted Bundy, I do not consider any of them Christians because if they were true Christians they never would have killed in the first place. You give me one example of Christians killing thousands by plotting a terrorist attack. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 29, 2008 8:03 AM:

" the cats:

Just exactly what I said, it's not true meaning it is a fairy tale. It is one persons warped version of the life the Christ. Just like those Thomas Paine books they are one persons opinion. Since we are debating the Bible here and it was brought up I added my opinion. Don't like it don't read it. Simple. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:53 PM:

" Pastor Baker writes...

"And then why would these first century authors die for something they knew to be completely fiction?

Why would our soldiers volunteer to go fight a war...a war they knew we were involved in based completely on fiction?

Why won't you protest the war...Thou shall not kill...you seem to ignore that scripture. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:50 PM:

" " Sweetcheeks writes...

"The Da Vincci Code is not a true story it is a ficticous story based on one persons opinion of Christ...

So is the bible. What is your point? "

I know it was addressed to someone else but my question still stands unanswered. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:48 PM:

" The Cat writes...

" cats: They're coming for you and me as the 9/11 and European attacks indicate. Christians have not been in the constant looting and killing business for the entire time the relgion has been in existance like the muslim cult has nor is it in the Bible like it is in the koran. "

I completely disagree with your position as stated in this post. I applaud the lack of insults in your post. Thank you for the exchange of ideas. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:45 PM:

" Hey Pastor Mike...why do you not oppose the death penalty and the war from your pulpit, writing letters to the editor, leading your followers in marches and protests, and spending all of that transparent money you have? You avoided the question the last time you posted how about now? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:44 PM:

" Sweetcheeks says...

"Also the difference between Muslims and Christians is that Christians don't kill and stalk people to kill just because they don't like them. "

Timmothy McVey was a christian as were the leaders of the crusades and the Spanish inqusition. George Bush is a christian...and on and on. John Wayne Gacey was a christian as was Ted Bundy. I know you wrote your post in all sincerity but really... Try again. Christians have killed as many people "because they don't like them" as any other religious group. BTW why do christians support war and the death penalty but oppose abortion? "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:35 PM:

" "Controller", I graciously accept your defeat. "

elcid wrote on Jul 28, 2008 8:03 PM:

" I have nothing against anyones religion, but I do object to the Muslim country's telling our G.I.'s they can't have a copy of the bible in those countrys. If that is the case then we should state they can't have the Quran in the states. That would make us as bad as them, and would deter from our laws stating freedom of religion is observed and respected. "

Controller wrote on Jul 28, 2008 2:37 PM:

" DK61727,

Quotes from your earlier post: "abusinging (sp) religious leaders", "Nazi Germany", "criminal behavior"

Nothing in that post had anything to do with the facts. Sorry, but I don’t debate the manic delusions that you manage to type up into semi-coherent posts. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 28, 2008 1:26 PM:

" Controller wrote on Jul 28, 2008 12:26 PM: " DK61727, You should heed the Lincoln quote “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.”

When you are incapable of arguing the facts with me, then that leaves you no alternative but to resort to the ad hominem attacks. You lose. "

The Cat wrote on Jul 28, 2008 1:09 PM:

" 110100100: Perhaps YOU need the history lesson again. Within 100 years of the founding of islam by the “prophet”, islamic forces had conquered all of the Mideast, North Africa, and Spain and were only stopped by the Franks and their allies at Tours, France in 732 AD from conquering Europe. Many of the peoples conquered, enslaved, force converted, or killed were Christians. The 1st Crusade came in 1096 AD almost 400 years after the muslim invasion of Europe. There was a long history of muslim terror before any massacres from the Crusades. There has been violence in Christian history but most has been the result of nationalistic or political struggles and are not the tenets of the religion like the koran supports islamic crimes. The recent terror attacks have nothing to do with “Christian armies in their lands” but the age-old desire of those radicals leading the islamic cult to dominate the world. As to “moderate muslims” where is the push from these “moderates” to rein in the extremists? Actually, the KKK was started as a result of carpetbagger suppression of former Confederates. "

Controller wrote on Jul 28, 2008 12:26 PM:

" DK61727,

You should heed the Lincoln quote “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.” "

Controller wrote on Jul 28, 2008 12:23 PM:

" Pastor Baker,

I'm not sure why wanting transparency and accountability means I’ve been burnt by the church. I’m also not sure how you can imply that the ‘vast majority’ of pastors are upfront and honest in their financial dealings. That may be the case, but we don’t know since there is no financial regulation.

I applaud you and Eastview for getting audited annually and opening up financial information to members. (Why just members though?) Would you support required public filings of such information for churches like all other nonprofits? Or would you consider it an assault on religion? "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 28, 2008 10:46 AM:

" That sure explains the terrorist attacks against our country doesnt it? "

Pastor Baker wrote on Jul 28, 2008 10:29 AM:

" Interesting turn in the conversation here. I think it points to the real problem with many posters. Many view the church as being led by money hungry guys who manipulate "God power" to get rich and feed their ego. You've been burnt by church and frankly don't trust them. Unfortunately, much of this is deserved, but the majority of people who are pastors really love God and people and are trying ot help. Just for the record Eastview is audited every year by an outside auditor and any member can see a full budget report on request. And, yes, I'm rich, but I don't measure riches in monetary terms. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 28, 2008 10:26 AM:

" The Cat and Sweetcheeks - You guys are seriously ridiculous. You have no concept of either Christian or Muslim history. Insinuating that all Muslims stalk, loot, and murder!? It’s as absurd as claiming all Christians are racist bigots, just because the KKK claims to have Christian motivations. There are extremist groups on both sides, but the vast majorities are moderates who get along with members of other religion groups and are tolerant towards others.

That being said, Christians do have a lot of blood on their hands from crimes through ought history. They massacred thousands of Jews and Muslims during the crusades, the inquisitions, witch hunts, Catholic vs Protestant wars. It’s absolutely absurd to accuse the Muslims of looting and murder; from their perspective, it is Christian armies who are plopped all over their oil rich land. "

jr792 wrote on Jul 28, 2008 10:17 AM:

" I thank alot of non belivers are missing the point here. I am a christan and I dont hate gay's or lesbians as a person but it's the sin we hate. "

Shiyane wrote on Jul 28, 2008 9:18 AM:

" I have to agree that televangisits do have a reputation for using the ministry for personal gain. Look at their lifestyle. Some of the live lavish lives when they know other people are in desperate need. Jim and Tammy Baker are a great example. There are televangilists that do not do that like Joyce Myers, you don't see her wearing $300 worth of make on her face everyday. I feel they should be held liable to the public and their records reviewable by the public. I do not agree that this should be done to regular churches where it is obvious they do not bring in millions of dollars a year. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 28, 2008 8:46 AM:

" "Controller", good to hear you got a good laugh from my last comment. I suspect you spend a lot of your time giggling and drooling, so I can't take all the credit.

Twist it all you want, but everyone can all see through your subterfuge; the real issue here is the likes of you and Grassley abusinging religious leaders by using the authority of Congress to selectively subpoena them to testify before a Senate investigating committee. That's the type of thing that occurred in Nazi Germany. This is America, where the majority rules, and that kind of criminal behavior by public officials is not going to take place without a major backlash. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 28, 2008 8:17 AM:

" the cats:
It was a response to someone else.

Also the difference between Muslims and Christians is that Christians don't kill and stalk people to kill just because they don't like them. "

The Cat wrote on Jul 27, 2008 7:57 PM:

" cats: They're coming for you and me as the 9/11 and European attacks indicate. Christians have not been in the constant looting and killing business for the entire time the relgion has been in existance like the muslim cult has nor is it in the Bible like it is in the koran. "

Controller wrote on Jul 27, 2008 2:39 PM:

" cont.

Your attempt to equate donation of funds for a specific purpose with personal exemptions is ludicrous. If I claim a false exemption, that is tax fraud and the IRS already has methods for dealing with this. However, if I donate money to a charity because they claim the funds will be used for a worthy purpose and instead the charity (or church) uses the money to line the pockets of the insiders (preachers) that can jeopardize their tax exemption. This can't be monitored now with churches though since no data is available. There is no reason churches should be different than other nonprofits in this regard. Schools over, consider yourself better educated now. "

Controller wrote on Jul 27, 2008 2:30 PM:

" DK61727,

Your post did get a laugh out of me, but we both know it's ridiculous. Here, let me educate you. Nonprofit 501(c)(3) organizations are regulated to ensure their compliance with code. Detailed financial information (990) is publicly available for all nonprofits so that donors and regulators can ensure that the organization is using funds appropriately. Churches have been exempt (wrongly) from providing this information. Senator Grassley from Iowa is currently investigating several televangelists who are suspected of using the 'ministry' as a front for personal gain. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 27, 2008 1:42 PM:

" To Just sayin'. I will agree with you on the fact that religion is all of those things but anybody worth their salt knows that Christianity is about a relationship, not religion. "

The Cats wrote on Jul 27, 2008 11:49 AM:

" Sweetcheeks writes...

"The Da Vincci Code is not a true story it is a ficticous story based on one persons opinion of Christ...

So is the bible. What is your point? "

The Cats wrote on Jul 27, 2008 11:15 AM:

" To The Cat...your words...

"" 1100100100: Perhaps you should look at the life of Muhammad who was basically an outcast loser that had his “visions” when he had his seizures. Perhaps you should look at the islamic cult also where they really don’t like anyone including each other and have spent the last 1400 or so years killing, conquering, looting, stealing, and slaving and fighting to get rid of any competing religious group or with each other to decide after 1400 years which sub cult (prophet disciple or relative) will run the cult. If you haven’t noticed they seem to carry their extreme “legal” system wherever they are with their honor killings and extreme prohibitions and they are moving into the West to take over. "

And how does this differ from christians? "

Just sayin' wrote on Jul 27, 2008 9:22 AM:

" Why do you think letters of religion are so popular in the media? Religion is inherently confrontational (sensational), and when pressed a bit further by any society, violent. Religion is narrow, confrontational, violent, exclusionary, and uncompromising. All the ingredients for war. It's no wonder all religions have doomsday conclusions. They are self fulfilling prophecies. You yourselves will be the murderers of the globe. No matter how sweet and safe you are in your stable American church, if our security should diminish, you are now laying the seeds for your grandchildren to be no more than any other two-bit murdering holy warrior. And all because you can't face your own human mortality. Superstitious coward - Grow up. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 27, 2008 9:04 AM:

" Are not exemptions specifically identified portions of income not taxable by statute and/or regulations? If that be the case, there can be no difference between an exemption for a person, business or organization, inasmuch as an exemption results in a potential loss of public revenue. Therefore, if you insist on the public disclosure of the exemptions of businesses or organizations (church), then ALL exemptions, should be subject to public scrutiny, including your personal net worth and individual income tax statements.

If YOU are willing to change the laws to apply to everyone, I'll support you in your "transparency" effort. Then, when I knock on the door at your residence, you can have a copy of your personal financial and income statements available for me to review. Naturally, you will have to avail yourself to a personal audit to answer questions about your financial statements, but I will gladly give you a couple of days advanced notice. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 26, 2008 5:31 PM:

" Controller, I would think that any church would be willing to show the details of its budgets if for no other reason than to prove there is no fraudulent activities going on. For those that don't do it, maybe they can give us both a legitimate answer. "

Controller wrote on Jul 26, 2008 2:48 PM:

" Tom,

I've been around plenty of churches and never have I seen more then basic summary financial data presented to anyone, even members. Sure the trustees or deacons see more of the data but my point is that garnering a tax exemption should require more transparency. Wasn't it just a week or so ago that there was an article about this guy who was wanting to exempt his million dollar home because he's now an ordained preacher and small groups gather there. There's a lot of tax fraud going on in the name of 'religion'. I'm not accusing Eastview of this, but we can't be sure when no information is available. "

Tom Terrific wrote on Jul 26, 2008 2:10 PM:

" To Controller. Some churches do have their books open for inspection. All you have to do is go in and ask to see them. They do this so no one can spread rumors about how they set up the budget. While you're checking his pay, see what they might spend on outreach or missions. I don't know Mike nor have I ever been in Eastview but I do know pastors do more than preach once a week. They also visit people in the hospital or home, they are counselors and some even hold jobs outside the church. The pastor most likely also has a board of directors that he has to answer to. "

Controller wrote on Jul 26, 2008 1:01 PM:

" Many preachers are making serious money talking a couple times a week to groups of people. Since the church gets money through donations that are tax deductible and the church itself is tax exempt, why aren't their financials available for public inspection like other nonprofits? What about you pastor Mike, can I stop by Eastview and get a copy of your annual financial results? How much are you making $100,000... $150,000... more??? "

bairfanx wrote on Jul 25, 2008 2:21 PM:

" I see some comments that you're praying for all of us.

I ask that you not pray for me. I don't want you to end up praying to the wrong god and inciting wrath upon me. "

JimmyChooGirl wrote on Jul 25, 2008 1:26 PM:

" 1101101010 - I know, I was just being my sarcastic self. : ) I could care less what anyone believes, but I get tired of others telling me what I believe is wrong, & that I can't be a Christian if I don't believe everything the bible says...that's why I said it. "

JimmyChooGirl wrote on Jul 25, 2008 1:25 PM:

" Wild at Heart - "Jimmychoo- you can't say Christ had some great lessons or provided any valuable, moral lessons AND call him a liar."

HUH? *L* I didn't call anyone a liar, have no clue what you are trying to say. Later in your post you say to me "You have faith that there isn't something greater than yourself - a far greater faith than I have" Really, I think there is nothing greater than myself? Hmm...I think God is greater than myself and that is why I pray and I have faith I will go to Heavean...don't know what you are talking about!!! God is not the bible, the bible is not God. For me, God is the almighty! The bible is a book written about God, if you believe otherwise so be it. BUT DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING ABOUT ME BECAUSE YOU THINK EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN GOD HAS TO BELIEVE THE BIBLE TO BE TRUE!!! "

110100100 wrote on Jul 25, 2008 12:39 PM:

" HTML is the tool of the DEVIL!!! "

incognito wrote on Jul 25, 2008 12:27 PM:

" Isabelle - I agree, and I have only been lurking. Pastor Baker does seem condesending to me as well. Perhaps I am "reading a certain tone of voice" in his writing. But really, who cares??? He does not need to influence our lives... I have given up trying to participate in these dialogues, they are hopeless.

Sweetcheeks - get a grip, you have become far too personally involved in this dialogue. Believe me, I know all about that - hence my refusal to join the club. If you look closely, 110100100's post is CLEARLY marked:

110100100 wrote on Jul 24, 2008 2:47 PM:

He simply mis-spelled your "handle" INSIDE of his post.

We would all do well to listen to Arlo Gunthrie and take care of our Little Peace. If everyone only worried about that then the Big Peace would take care of itself... "

isabelle wrote on Jul 25, 2008 11:55 AM:

" Since this thread has already gotten way out of hand, I'll take this time to say to Pastor Baker that I think his comments are really condescending. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 25, 2008 10:47 AM:

" Stop avoiding the question and answer it. Why did you post it under the name SWEETCHEECKS? Why did you not use 110100100? It is pretty evident that you did not think anyone would catch the extra "c". NICE TRY! again it is pretty evident you wanted everyone to think I said it. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 25, 2008 10:40 AM:

" Sweetcheeks - I addressed Wild at Heart, The Cats, Pastor Baker, JimmyChooGirl, ican'tfindmyshoeee, and yourself all in the exact same manner. Unlike some of the other clowns that post on these things, I prefer not to mash down the CAPS LOCK key.

Your question was: Why don't you just accept that you are not going to change the minds of the Christian posters on here regardless of how much of TP's opinions you throw at them. My reply was: Honestly, this debate is entertaining. Beyond amusement it serves no real purpose to me.. You then replied again with: Your right it is amusing. For every person that applies scripture here you pull another paragraph out of those books. So apparently it didn’t throw you off the first time, but the second time around you accuse me of using your name as an imposter. No wonder you can’t interpret the Bible. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 25, 2008 10:05 AM:

" 110100100:
I do not believe that at all. If that were trye then why do you have a name exatly like mine? You have 1 letter extra and there is only one reason for that. If you were not trying to hide behind me why didn't you use 110100100? Nice try but your not at all convincing. I never said you needed the holy spirit in you to read and type. But I do suggest you obtain some decency and use your own name. To ask Wild at Heart's question:if this topic serves no purpose why are you posting here? "

110100100 wrote on Jul 25, 2008 9:44 AM:

" Sweetcheeks - I didn’t hide behind anything! I was replying to your question! Wild at heart misread it! Every time I address someone I put their name in bold followed by a hyphen “-“ followed by my comment. Apparently I need to Holy Spirit in me to both read and write. If I wanted to be an imposter I would have put a timestamp after your name. Burn me at the steak! I’m using that devil technology again! "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 25, 2008 9:27 AM:

" 110100100:
That is pathetic that you are tried to hide behind me to say that. It speaks volumes of you. That is very low class. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 25, 2008 9:11 AM:

" Wild at Heart & Sweetcheecks - I’m the one who said “Honestly, this debate is entertaining. Beyond amusement it serves no real purpose to me.” I’m not running for office or trying to change people’s minds; I enjoy the conversation and the debate. The beauty of democracy is we are allowed to have rational discussions.

I see nothing remarkable about the deaths of Peter or Paul or any other apostle. They join the ranks of countless others who were executed at the hands of the Roman occupation; each having their own story and dying for their own beliefs. [S/P]aul, for one, seems to have been quite the trouble maker; his sermons often ended with him being chased from town by angry mobs. It might also be appropriate to note that countless were also executed at the hands of Christian zealots, often dying for their beliefs. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 25, 2008 8:49 AM:

" Wild at heart:
look closer to that post. Someone copied my name, the spelling is Sweetcheecks mine is spelled Sweetcheeks. Perhaps I should have scrolled down to see that post first but knowing I never said that I posted first. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 25, 2008 8:06 AM:

" Wild at hear:
Where in any of my posts did I say it servers no purpose to me? Nowhere thats whre. Just beacuse I do not post my opinion on this does not mean I do not have a reason. I do not agree with anything Thomas Pain writes on regarding religion because he is writing as if they are fact when it is nothing but his opinion. As you can see anyone who posts scriptures are getting ripped apart by someone who lives and breathes what is written in those books. One verse in the bible does state not to cast your pearls before the swine. "

DK61727 wrote on Jul 25, 2008 6:49 AM:

" "Wild at Heart", I have followed your dialogue and appreciate your wisdom. But, just an observation, if I may. Most of these people with whom you exchange comments quite obviously do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them to help them interpret the scriptures. In effect, you are discussing the same topical issues, but you are in substantially different dimensions. "

Wild at Heart wrote on Jul 24, 2008 4:00 PM:

" Sweetcheeks - I'm not sure I understand your need to post if this "serves no purpose" for you.

110100100 - You tend to speak on generic, general terms. I'm talking specifically. I'm talking about the Apostle Paul, Peter, and many others. I understand martyrdom isn't unique to those men or to Christianity.....however, it is unique to tie a man's death (Paul, Peter and others) directly to the lie (according to you and others) they themselves made up, which was that another man (Christ) is the Chosen Son of God.

As for Christ being married - I ask, why wouldn't He be any different? What about Him says "conform" to societial views or customs? That's exactly what made Christ so different; and, therefore more discussed, written about, hated, loved than anyone else in history........HE was "different"...just as Paul and Peter claimed...the One. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 24, 2008 3:08 PM:

" Your right it is amusing. For every person that applies scripture here you pull another paragraph out of those books. The Da Vincci Code is not a true story it is a ficticous story based on one persons opinion of Christ but then again you thrive on those opinions. The most famous person for this opinion was omg.. Sylvia Brown..she is a what?.......ever wonder why she has never won the lottery? "

110100100 wrote on Jul 24, 2008 2:47 PM:

" Wild at Heart - I have no idea what motivates men to invent and spread religions or impose them on others. Even today there are nuts out there claiming to be prophets, warning of the world’s imminent doom. Martyrdom is a common theme in most religions. The Romans crucified people on and industrial scale. When they sacked Jerusalem several decades after Christ’s death, they encircled the city with over 10,000 crucified Jews. They would get so bored crucifying people that they’d nail them up in different positions for amusement.

As for the “Da Vinci Code,” I never read the book but the movie sucked. However, I would imagine that Jesus was in fact married. It would have been quite “sexually deviant” for a 30 year old Jew to not have a wife, especially since he was a Rabbi. Most Jewish men were married by their late teens. Why would Jesus be any different? He would never been allowed to teach at the Temple Mount if he’d been unmarried.

Sweetcheecks - Honestly, this debate is entertaining. Beyond amusement it serves no real purpose to me. "

Wild at Heart wrote on Jul 24, 2008 12:06 PM:

" 110100100 - By your logic (or is it Thomas Paine's logic?) these authors of the Bible, who were prosecuted, murdered, crucified, tortured, etc., etc., did so for a bunch of lies....that they, themselves, concocted. Wow.

In regards to your GW reference........so, who was Christ and why would several (actually, more than "several") people make up a bunch of lies about Him? Why would those people then die for those lies? Why would those lies have a larger impact on human kind than any other person or religion or cult or theory or "fact?"

One other question - are you one of those people that believe the movie "The Da Vinci Code" is real and factual? "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 24, 2008 11:08 AM:

" 11010010:
Why don't you just accept that you are not going to change the minds of the Christian posters on here regardless of how much of TP's opinions you throw at them. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 24, 2008 10:45 AM:

" Wild at Heart - you fail to make any distinction between the authors and Christ himself. If someone wrote a book claiming George Washington won the revolution single handed, it would not make George Washington the liar. "

The Cat wrote on Jul 24, 2008 10:41 AM:

" 1100100100: Perhaps you should look at the life of Muhammad who was basically an outcast loser that had his “visions” when he had his seizures. Perhaps you should look at the islamic cult also where they really don’t like anyone including each other and have spent the last 1400 or so years killing, conquering, looting, stealing, and slaving and fighting to get rid of any competing religious group or with each other to decide after 1400 years which sub cult (prophet disciple or relative) will run the cult. If you haven’t noticed they seem to carry their extreme “legal” system wherever they are with their honor killings and extreme prohibitions and they are moving into the West to take over. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 24, 2008 10:20 AM:

" Pastor Baker - I’m afraid the prophecies that you speak of did not come to pass as predicted (or rather as the authors claimed they predicted). The book of Mathew, in particular, repeatedly references these OT prophecies. But upon examination of these references, you find that a good many of them are not even really prophecies, and in almost all cases are completely stripped of both their contexts and tenses (not to mention mistranslations; for example, the Hebrew word for “young woman” was translated to virgin).

Indeed, it is evident that the vast majority of Jews rejected Jesus as their prophcized messiah (and continue to, to this day). This probably explains why early Christians quickly moved to include Gentiles, who were more accustomed to worshiping human gods or sons of gods and were less familiar with Jewish language and prophecy. "

Pastor Baker wrote on Jul 24, 2008 8:38 AM:

" chubbyalaskagriz - my Scriptures as in they are dear to me and I own their words, not in that I'm in charge of them...but I think you knew that. I get the skeptcism towards the Bible. How someone in the first century would tell a story about a guy being born of a virgin knowing that it would comply with something written 500 years earlier. What I don't get is how this and over 50 other prophecies would come to pass exactly as predicted. What are the odds. And then why would these first century authors die for something they knew to be completely fiction? I've said before the Bible is the most examined book in the history of the world and it holds up. The exact same criticism of every historical book we've got has been applied to the Bible and it is found to be accurate. Maybe there's something to it after all. "

Wild at Heart wrote on Jul 24, 2008 8:28 AM:

" Right on, shoeeee.

Jimmychoo- you can't say Christ had some great lessons or provided any valuable, moral lessons AND call him a liar. You don't have that option. He claimed to be God's Son. He claimed to be born of a virgin. He is either Lord, lunatic, or liar. He can't be both a great moral teacher and a liar. Also, the line between reason and faith is a fine line. You have faith that your reason is correct. You have faith that the reason used by falible human beings to construct theories of the Big Bang, evolution, and of a "flat earth" is (was - in the case of the flat earth) infalible. You have faith that there isn't something greater than yourself - a far greater faith than I have - I'll take my chances believing in what many on this blog call "a myth, a fairytale." If I'm wrong and Christ isn't the Son of God, that leaves me....where? Exactly where you'll be. If I'm right, well......I'll continue to pray for you and hope I see you jamming with Christ one day. "

Sweetcheeks wrote on Jul 24, 2008 8:28 AM:

" The Thomas Paine wannabe strikes again. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 24, 2008 6:46 AM:

" ican'tfindmyshoeee - technically I think the authors would be the raving lunatics, not Jesus. They obviously embellished when writing these books and added certain elements that would appear to fulfill prophecy (they were very clumsy about this) or prove Jesus's divinity. The virgin birth, for example, is a story hijacked from Greek mythology (Perseus) and erroneously used to fulfill a prophecy from the book of Isiah. "

chubbyalaskagriz wrote on Jul 24, 2008 4:03 AM:

" RE: "Pastor Baker wrote on Jul 23, 2008 8:18 AM:"

Pastor Baker writes: "My Scriptures".

????????????????????? "

ican'tfindmyshoeee.. wrote on Jul 24, 2008 1:37 AM:

" 1000101, you "have no dought that Christ lived and taught some wonderful lessons" eh??

yet in the very next sentence, without even realizing (?), you basically left Him as a raving lunatic that claimed to be God.

By the way, have you spoken with Tom, since the accident? "

110100100 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:44 PM:

" The Cat - wow. Ironically I agree completely with you that God's revelation to the Prophet Mohammad seems absurd, but no more than the revelations of Judaism or Christianity. Angels came to Mary and Joseph in dreams. Moses talked to a plant. Eve talked to a snake. Why is one more absurd than the other? They are all three Judaistic religions and all three claim to be revealed religions (that is, God revealed his will through angels and prophets). All three worship the same God of Abraham, but Christians added the divine human element, something the other two reject.

That said, Islam is not an unorthodox religion. It is the second largest religion in the world and the fastest growing. And most Muslims are not extremists just like most Christians are not intolerant. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 9:18 PM:

" JimmyChooGirl - Nothing wrong with being open minded about both sides of the argument.

Wild at Heart - I'll work on your homework assignment tonight. I encouraged others to read Age of Reason and Examination of Prophecies by Thomas Paine... but was met with angry refusals. I have no doubt that Christ did live and taught some wonderful lessons. However, I disagree that it can be proven he was born of a virgin, the divine Son of God, or was resurrected and ascended to heaven. These are the parts where reason must be replaced with faith.

I guess I can take comfort in the fact that if I go to Hell, I won't be alone; but I don't think heaven is as vacant as others make it out to be. "

The Cat wrote on Jul 23, 2008 7:28 PM:

" 110100100: Definition of a cult: “a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader”. Certainly seems to fit Muhammad and boys when they started out since he was given the koran in “visions”, “magic” trip with the Angel Gabriel, used his text as a pretext to loot and conquer, and engaged in some extreme practices. Last I heard Christianity became a religion after Jesus’ death scratching the “charismatic leader” bit even if you have problems with the tenets of the religion. Once again, the anti-Christian movement is more to justify government as the source of all freedoms and morals than anything else. moon: Apparently you have missed the surcharges on insurance for smoking and reckless driving as well as the nanny state attempts to force everyone to eat “properly”, not smoke, and control booze. The opposite is true for homosexual activity. "

Wild at Heart wrote on Jul 23, 2008 4:23 PM:

" JimmyChooGirl - "THESE ARE BOOKS you are talking about, written by human beings." AND? Do you think everything is learned by....what?....osmosis? fusion? whatever you or I think? These books are "written by human beings"....that have studied, fought for, fought against, argued, and studied some more (and then some more) on these subjects. Sooooo, if I understand what you're saying, we should ignore doctors, too. After all, the books they've learned from were written by human beings. Don't listen to your mechanic or plumber or electrician or carpenter either.......what do they know? Forget about reading or studying anything.....it's all written or discovered or whatever by mere human beings...... "

JimmyChooGirl wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:57 PM:

" I love all these "read this and that and you will learn God's way" THESE ARE BOOKS you are talking about, written by human beings. BUT please believe every word you read if that's how you get your kicks. I am going to watch Law & Order tonight so i can find the true meaning of life...I suggest everyone else do the same, Jack McCoy will be revealed to you only if you watch! I will be praying for you all. "

Wild at Heart wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:34 PM:

" 110100100 - you're right.......Facts can be proven. Gravity can be proven. Heliocentricism can be proven. Christ's existence can be proven. Christ's claims can be proven. Seek and you shall find. Some homework for you - read "More than a Carpenter" and then "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," by Josh McDowell. It's easy reading.....as intelligent as you seem to be, it should only take you a couple hours. "

GotFaith wrote on Jul 23, 2008 3:28 PM:

" 110100100 -

As I stated in the other blog, the things you mention hear as "truth" are things you can directly observe and experience through the 5 senses, relying on your ability to reason.

But take more abstract concepts, such as justice, freedom, right vs wrong. There has to be an absolute, perfect standard for each to exist. We all have innate understandings of these concepts, they are instilled in us by our Creator.

If you open the door to your heart and soul and pray for God to reveal Himself, He will touch your heart in a manner that you will know the truth.

I'm with Pastor Baker....I am praying for all of you. "

110100100 wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:00 AM:

" Pastor Baker - truth is an ambiguous idea. “Conformity to fact” would be a general definition. You are premature to dismiss consensus. Humans do not disagree with everything. Facts can be proven. Gravity can be proven. Heliocentricism can be proven. Who proves these facts to be true is relative to the subject or theory in question. "

Pastor Baker wrote on Jul 23, 2008 8:18 AM:

" Wow! Have I missed you guys! Where else can I go to hear such wisdom (sarcastic I know). Obviously many of you question the Bible which I consider the source of truth. So here's my question - What is truth? and another - Who determines what is true? Please don't say, "common sense" or "consensus" because human history shows that humans disagree on everything. So who decides? If these "truths" that all of you wr

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