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Mitsubishi, UAW end talks for weekend
Union workers expected to report for work on Monday
By M.K. Guetersloh
mkguetersloh@pantagraph.com
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NORMAL -- Contract negotiations between Mitsubishi Motors North America and its auto workers ended Saturday evening without an agreement.

Bargaining members of the United Auto Workers Local 2488 unanimously rejected the company’s latest offer made at 12:30 p.m. Saturday. But union officials are telling its 1,261 members to return to work anyway.

“Workers are to report to work as regularly scheduled,” said a recorded message left for callers to the union hall in west Bloomington.

The original contract expired Aug. 28, but a subsequent extension was approved and expired at 11:59 p.m. Friday. The two sides have been in negotiations since July 14 but a marathon session started on Friday. That session ended at 3 a.m. Saturday and resumed again around noon, before the latest proposal was rejected.

The talks are reportedly centered on issues including wage and benefit cuts, and a two-tier wage system. A statement issued Saturday night by UAW officials in Detroit said the bargaining committee remains ready to continue talks.

“In 2006 UAW members made concessions worth millions of dollars to improve Mitsubishi’s bottom line,” UAW Vice President Jimmy Settles said in the statement. “So it’s extremely disappointing that this latest proposal asks these loyal workers for the kind of drastic cuts that would have a devastating impact on their lives and on the communities in which they live.”

MMNA spokesman Dan Irvin said no new negotiations have been scheduled, and had no idea when talks might resume. He declined comment on the UAW bargaining committee’s rejection of the latest proposal.

“By definition we are still in negotiations and so I am not going to discuss it,” Irvin said. He added that the company is expecting employees to report to work as usual Monday.

Attempts to reach Local 2488 President Ralph Timan were unsuccessful Saturday. UAW officials in Detroit also could not be reached for comment.

In August, 97 percent of union members voted to authorize a strike, according to its Web site. The vote is a procedural step during the negotiation period, but now permits them to walkout if negotiations fail to result in a new contract.

To date, the only strike in Mitsubishi’s history was a one-day walkout in 2001.

The current impasse in negotiations comes in the midst of a challenging year for both the company and the automotive industry. MMNA’s U.S. sales through August have dropped 22.4 percent, from 93,724 vehicles in 2007 to 72,727 in 2008.

As a result of the diminishing sales, 105 union workers left the plant last month as part of a voluntary separation package. They received a lump-sum payment of $85,000 and three months of medical benefits.

The plant now has 1,565 employees. An average production worker earns about $50,000 annually, while the average maintenance worker earns about $60,000.

Mitsubishi also has had other difficult times in recent years, most notably when it laid off 1,200 workers and eliminated its second shift in 2004.

Then, as part of the 2006 wage and benefit cut agreement, workers narrowly approved a temporary $4 per hour pay cut, in return for the company’s promise not to close the plant or seek involuntary layoffs through the end of the current contract.

The company used the money saved on wages to help fund the redesign of the 2009 Galant, which hit the dealerships earlier this year.

The wage cut was then restored in April, but management initially asked the union to consider a lump-sum payment instead.

Take a look
Mitsubishi Motors North America plant on Tuesday afternoon March 13, 2007. (The Pantagraph/STEVE SMEDLEY)
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Reader comments on this story - 292 total

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

illini-dog wrote on Oct 7, 2008 4:17 PM:

" Oh by the way good luck with designing injectors that eliminate union jobs wannabe.What a tool. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 7, 2008 4:15 PM:

" Mountain boy;Have it your way like burger king and since you keep skipping the questions about all the junk fuel systems you are designing and why pontiac is going to lose money again this year because of your junk and the warranties that they are paying out.I'm glad i retired in 2004 when they were very profitable at pontiac but now with you geniuses they are really hurting . I'll take a union any day over terrible design teams any day and again tell me who is worse . I have had fun making you look like the nitwit wannabe but now your tales are getting more pathetic and tiring. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 7, 2008 8:06 AM:

" Pup – Please learn to read and comprehend. I’ve never said I work AT Pontiac. Get a clue genius. I’ve also never said I work with mechanical robots, only union robots. Your sources are probably more union Know-it-all wannabes, obviously they, like you, are wrong. As usual.

Reading and comprehending is not a requirement for the union, but you probably should learn.

I don’t waste a lot of time surfing the i-net when I’m home. Again, my home PC probably cost more than your trailer.

Believe whatever gets you through the day.

I printed your genius comments and took them with me. So no, my computer did not make the trip. Again, wrong assumption by you.

I wasn’t aware Corporate cleared all their travel with the union. Wow I’ll make sure we ask their permission next time.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? All three of your posts are just more assumptions and you being unable to understand simple posts. But, that probably made you a good union robot.

Have some more union jobs to eliminate, got to run. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 6, 2008 11:13 PM:

" Mountain boy; You mean you had your computer on the ''charter'' but cannot post after 5?LOL.LOL.LOL.You get funnier all the time.Tell us more about this charter since no one at the plant has ever heard of this.Come on wannabe this is going to get really good.I bet it was a private plane too huh?LOL.LOL. Get ready for some more dandies boys the wannabe is really on a roll now. This is historic for comedy and please give us more.LOL. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 6, 2008 8:30 PM:

" Mountain boy; It's after 5 and still no post from you.They have good deals on the net now in case you didn't know that.What kind of lie can you come up with for not posting after 5?Your trillion dollar computer at home to good to hook up to the net? Why are you so fond of trailers since you mention them all the time, is that what you have with no net hook ups?Come on now your great entertainment and the truth must be hitting home with you since your getting sensitive.Get ready boys i think alot of points can be made with these replies.Ozarks and talledega are still my favorites but designing injectors at pontiac when all the rest are at mossville is becoming legendary. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 6, 2008 5:46 PM:

" Yep still pathetic .Your biggest lie is obvious to everyone here except you. Now which is it, you design injectors or you work with robots to eliminate union jobs?A wannabe like you can claim both but that makes you look stupid . Most engineers and designers are at mossville but you are at pontiac. Hmmm?Please give us more humor and tell us what injector you designed or are a part of. My sources say you are vsi or kroeschel and i believe them since you have no clue and are looking more pathetic as we go. Tell us about the disaster of the 315b, cr200 or the pumps that you idiots have destroyed or maybe you can be honest and admit to being kroeschel the wannabe maint. boys that can't fix a clock or vsi that is a step above futures unlimited. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 6, 2008 8:13 AM:

" pup – Stick to making things up about your life and your union’s necessity/ability. You have zero clue about Cat’s plans for any market, let alone fuel systems.

Typical union member though that since you stuck a bolt in a hole, you know everything about the company, how to do it better and long range plans.

All you know is how to dodge blame when your union robots can’t figure out simple processes or don’t follow directions.

The only wannabe is you and you’re know-it-all union attitude. This is why I take pride reducing your numbers. Hopefully before I retire the only union members will will be the Janitors. Maybe they can get my yard mowed.

You’re assumptions about me, like everything else, are just wrong. However believe what you want, it doesn’t change facts to which you know nothing of.

Too bad you couldn’t come up to Talladega, a couple of people on the charter were rolling in the isles after reading your words of wisdom and would like to meet such a genius. You would have been the only one there in a Harley t-shirt though. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 6, 2008 7:57 AM:

" Because you watched the race in your trailer on a 9’ B/W TV doesn’t mean that everyone lives that way. We flew from Peoria to the track,I have video.

Sorry, but I didn’t know there was going to be a quiz, nor do I care for The Imitator so I didn’t memorize his car. Like the swept Cubs, he’s overrated. Hendrick lowered his standards signing him and only did it for the fan support/sponsors he brings. Don’t care for Blaney either, but the trip was free so whatever.

I could show you my autographed ticket, but you would have to find someone that could read.

I know nothing of your trailer park, but I bet it’s really classy if it allows you and your harley to live there. My taxes are more than lot values there.

Believe what you wish pup, but you have nothing but inaccurate assumptions. Hope they get you through the day.

I see the MMMA robots took the paycut. They are getting closer to their worth. Another round of paycuts in 2012 and they should be even closer.

Hope you got my yard mowed for next weekend. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 5, 2008 2:54 PM:

" Mountain boy; What was the name of the cat employee who had their name painted on dale .jr car at the race today?If you was there you would know that easily so let's see the lies start again.We are all getting tired of your lies so i think i will move on to better things and quit wasting my time on a wannabe like you.You are funny with your wannabe tales though and thanks for the humor.I will wait for your response about who's name was on the car though to make you look silly one last time. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 3, 2008 9:09 PM:

" Mountain boy; It's been fun making you look silly but now your just getting pathetic when you try and tell me something about where i live and who the pro is and it really makes you look silly. It's obvious you don't even have the net at home since you never post after 5 but you want people to believe your tales?The people in the plant say the injectors are junk [and thats coming from mangt.]yet you don't want to talk about those terrible designs you fools came up with you want to blame the union like usual. I think you need to get your attention some where else and find a job you can handle like maybe designing fly swatters. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 3, 2008 7:46 PM:

" Mountain boy; Please let us know who this person is that has so much wrong info about down here. He must be related to you if all he can do is evade and lie . I love the race tale though and sure we all believe you since all you have done is lie. Must really suck to be a wannabe but hey their your tales so spin em how you dream.LOL.Tell us more about your travels overseas on the design team BBWWAAA.LOL.Your not even pathetic anymore your just sad.
P.S I know some designers for cat that will be looking for a job soon so maybe they can mow your banjo paradise in flea heaven.Of course they will probably screw that up too.Maybe you can go to the library and get on the net this weekend no?lol.lol "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 3, 2008 7:35 PM:

" Mountain boy; I'll make it real simple for you...just google lake ashton golf course and see what comes up. BBWWWAAAa!!Funny but it even says right on their website who the pro is . Too funny wannabe.Funny but when i left the navistar assembly line was one of the most automated and most productive cat has ever had and now with you idiots they are struggling to assemble injectors?Let me guess it's the unions fault that you tools designed the wrong spring in the spools and they are getting hammered on warranties because of you. They are getting out of the over the road injectors because you fools have set them back years with poor designs and terrible product. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 3, 2008 7:33 AM:

" LOL You might want to let them know you're so knowledgable about a pro that no one knows. LOL I've never been there, but according to someone who says they know - your wrong. I'd pretty much believe anyone over a union nitwit like you.

Ummmm you do know that Mountain Home isn't in the mountains right? If you would have stayed at school you could have taken a geography course.

Only thing wrong with the fuel systems in Pontiac is the execution of getting them assembled. We can only make it so easy, but I guess it's not enough. That's why we're automating more every year. Of course the union always blames everyone but their uneducated and incapable membership so it doesn't surprise me about your little made up problems.

I guess I'll take the awards for the design off my walls since someone so qualified thinks something is wrong with them.

Been invited to go to Talladega for the Sprint Cup race this weekend as a guest of the CAT team so after Noon I won't be around to continue our entertaining discussion. Would you mow my grass at the house in Bull Shoals? "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 2, 2008 6:56 PM:

" Mountain boy;The only other pros in this area that i have heard of are robert forward who works at lake wales country club or jonathan powell who works at mountain lake.I know them by name only and i think their is one at indian lakes estate that is named stewart but i can guarantee you the one here at ashton lake is eddie frye. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 2, 2008 6:42 PM:

" Nick stadler is the name of the other pro but he doesn't work here he is retired and lives nearby and just golfs here. Tell me who this supposed pro is that works here since we are all waiting for some more laughs from the wannabe.Make it a really good lie though since your batting .1000. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 2, 2008 5:13 PM:

" I guess i'll have to tell the superintendent david wilson he doesn't have a pro here named eddie fry. LOL. Can you ever tell the truth or is it just natural for a wannabe like you to always lie?Your beyond pathetic with your lies.I don't know eddie personally but tommorow i'll tell him he's the fraud and vor2 isn't. LOL.LOL. What a fraud.Let's talk about that disaster on the 315b and the pumps and cr200. You idiots have destroyed fuel systems at cat and it's so bad they are getting out of some of the markets because their new injectors are junk and know one wants them anymore. Who is bad for the company , the union or the fools that design junk and lose market share like you have. Keep dreaming mountain boy. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 2, 2008 3:11 PM:

" puppy - Funny but the Lake Ashton pro I know just let me know he doesn't know Eddie Fry, or Mick, or Nick.

LOL Who's the wannabe? "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 2, 2008 8:12 AM:

" Puppy – MMMA is done. You union nitwits are going to continue your typical greed and Mitsu will say good bye. It will be a great day.

Your description of problems at Pontiac is like always is wrong and just made up. Nice try though. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 2, 2008 8:09 AM:

" abacus101 – It’s east to talk like a professional isn’t it? With all you and your dads knowledge you still work the line. Hmmm Wonder why that is? A genius like you should be doing something a little more important than sticking bolts.

Enjoy your ‘travel plans’, a high roller like you should enjoy exotic places like Heyworth and LeRoy. Hey I hear Hudson is beautiful this time of year. If you decide to go to places like Europe or China let me know, I’ve been to both several times for Cat.

I enjoy the Ozarks because there are not so many blue collars like Florida.

I agree it’s best you quit this discussion, you can’t file a grievance so you are on your own which you can’t succeed at. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 5:33 PM:

" Abacus; Good luck to you and don't worry mmna is not going to close . I wonder if vor2 will reply anymore since i still know alot of people at that plant and if he will brag about all the junk they have been designing.The 315b alone costs more in warranties because these genius's designed a wrong spring in the spool and cat is losing ton's of money because of this. The pumps were cracking under pressure cause these fools designed it wrong and the list goes on and on. If he works for aa or kroeshel they are beyond a waste and cannot fix anything or get a line running worth a dang. "

abacus101 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 4:56 PM:

" illini-dog - As you can see VOR2 can't muster up any replies to any of our last Automotive related questions. If he's looking for a date for Saturday night he’s strung me along for too long. I even about felt my eyes get wet when he explained what it would take to design that washer. Having designed for CAT "Tool Design" most of those factors become a snore for even a third grader. And yes it appears Moe is his role model, and yes Moe used his favorite word nitwit. (not hard to prove) Remember also that the Stooges often wore dress clothes and suits and looked educated just like Mr No-it-all here. To bad his education didn't help him become likable. Anyway I've no more time for this loser as most of my internet time is consumed with travel plans. And while the Ozarks are ok, there are so many places I haven't yet been to here and abroad. With or without Mitsubishi that will not change. Enjoy retirement my net acquaintance illini-dog. And VOR2 get on a diet plan and get that cholesterol count down. I'm gone. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 4:10 PM:

" The only pro i know around here is eddie fry. I don't know him personally since i do my 9 and move on to other things but their are 2 other pro's here and i think one of them is named nick or mick.Yes you should move up in a mountain area since un american fools like you have a hard time making friends. This is great that you work at pontiac since i still have alot of friends there. Don't worry i'm not going to tell anyone and if you can get away with net time fine . If you can figure it out i transfered over from ohio in 85. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 4:00 PM:

" Hey i retired from pontiac in 2004. Either aa or kroeshel then.More low paid morons.LoL. That explains why my buddies tell me the cr200 is junk and everything else their is too. Tell me wise one who was the genius behind the 315b? Funny you say employment is going down but my buddies say their is more employees there than ever before.LOL. I always liked mike roy is he still there?Their was a gimp there that always broke his ankles and had heart attacks like crazy but i can't remmember his name. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 3:12 PM:

" Puppy - You say you live on Lake Ashton? What's the name of the pro from the golf course there? Oddly I have a friend in florida we golf with who knows him and I'd like to see if you do. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:49 PM:

" So it took abacus101 4 years to get a degree in Slacking? (which I even doubt he has) Yipee. I'll take my 6 years and the position I have to his union job that he'll lose when MMMA closes. Do you even think these things through when you say them? You have to make this tougher for me or it's not as much fun. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. I guess I shouldn't expect much more though.

Any more insults or assumptions you want to make?

BTW - MMMA is still broke (as are all the union labor industries), probably still closing and you've yet to explain that. All the insults about me in the world won't explain that so why don't you give me the union spin on it. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:42 PM:

" puppy - If you can't figure it out maybe you can get 10-12 union guys together to help. 1 of you are bound to be able to read. We design fuel systems built in Pontiac. Mostly by robots because we’re trying to get rid of as many union jobs as we can. It’s the highlight of my day and something I take great pride in when I can get a manual job automated. We’ve been very successful as we’ve reduced the workforce every year.

Good luck in 'Florida'. I wouldn't live near a bunch of retired blue collars anyway. Fortunately my home on the East side and in Bull Shoals is a little more out of their reach. Moving to Mountain Home when I retire in an area also out of their reach. The only time I have to put up with them is when they are mowing my yard.

When MMMA closes they'll be living in boxes. Wal-Mart won’t seem so bad when they are looking for a job that they priced themselves out of. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:25 PM:

" I don't know what school abacus went to but i bet it didn't take him all the years it took a wannabe like you . Still waiting for that employer of yours that you are embarrassed to admit too. Come on the truth will set you free. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:09 PM:

" Hey Abacus101 - Please do tell what school would be so honored to have graduated a genius like youself. If you say the School of Hard Knocks I'm going to die laughing. And please enlighten us on why a highly educated genius like yourself is in a labor union working a line. What's your degree in: 'slacking'? "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 2:03 PM:

" Regarding your 9-19 post it does not say where you work at, only that you have to deal with proud americans all day so that means it's probably ats or vsi like i said.What are you hiding?No one is going to turn you in since it's obvious you have a meaningless job and know one really cares since your not important anyway. Thankfully wannabes like you are short in supply and have no demand. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 1:55 PM:

" I live on lake ashton where i can golf all day and fish in the evenings or go bowling if i want. Their are alot of union retirees on my block that love their country so i don't think you would fit in or be well liked. As far as wal-mart you will never see me there since i only support america and not companies that support china like you do. Still waiting on this place you work at or would the truth embarrass you more.lol.
Bull shoals had great fishing in the 90's but haven't been there in awhile. Tell Capt Jack i said hi.lol "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 12:52 PM:

" Let me know where in Florida you retired so when I walk into the Wal-mart you work at I can say hi. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 12:30 PM:

" Again nothing but insults and assumptions. Is that all the union hall taught you?

Because I had a family and a full time job it actually took longer than 4 years to graduate, but assume all you care to. Because people have accomplished things in their life that you couldn't doesn't mean it's impossible.

No Duffer45 is not my wife, although she seems level headed enough to be so.

See if you can figure out from the 9/19 12:49 post the info you need genius. Should have stayed in school for that reading comprehension class. Although you probably don’t have to be able to read to be in the union, just be able to be a robot.

Be thinking of you down on Bull Shoals this weekend. No, probably not.

So whereabouts in Florida did you retire? I didn’t know they were calling West Bloomington ‘Florida’ these days. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 11:23 AM:

" Vor2; You see i'm the one thats retired on a great pension that my union got me while you are the envious wannabe that comes in here bad mouthing the union showing your jealousy and envy.Can you dispute this or are you just a anti union , anti american fool that likes to show his stupidity to everyone? If thats the case then fine ..we know that. "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 11:14 AM:

" Vor2; I just went back and looked and nope i can't find anywhere you said who your employer is , so thats just another one of your lies.Durfer 45 is your wife huh? Come on financial genius we need some more laughter.Tell us how you went to u of i for 4 years in your late 20's and raised a family and now they are driving to the ozarks with you too. lol BWAAA. Please give us retired folks some tips financial genius while i enjoy the florida sun some more while not having to pay personal income taxes. Come on wannabe i still have friends in the area that can confirm this great job you have and the boys at the hall are so jealous of you they want to know also. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 10:38 AM:

" Abacus101 - I did like the Three Stooges actually. I guess that’s why I find this conversation so entertaining. Find one more union member and you guys would qualify. And Moe used the word Numbskull, Nitwit.

And unfortunately my wife usually insists that I take her on the weekends, she’s kind of crazy that way. Kids drive themselves. No, I won’t let them take an American car just so that I know they will make it.

If you knew anything, designing a ‘spacer washer’ is 100 times more difficult than sticking a bolt in a hole. When you consider material, tolerances and what stresses that ‘washer’ is being subjected to, it’s something you, or your genius dad, couldn’t even begin to do correctly. Of course you could just walk down to the NAPA and get a pack of washers and throw on there under the shade tree, that will fix it. Genius.

A failure of a $5 ‘spacer washer’ can stop a $750K earth mover if it’s not correct.

You or your dad couldn’t design a birdhouse so I’d first learn before attempting to make fun of people who have that skill. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 10:38 AM:

" Wow puppy, again you are right on track. LOL Do you ever get tired of being a genius? "

illini-dog wrote on Oct 1, 2008 9:18 AM:

" It's after 9 and no response from vor2.Maybe he had to do an extra coffee run for the fellows or he could be home sick where he doesn't have a computer or the net. I can't wait to hear who this employer is that pays so well and has a top notch employee like vor2. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Oct 1, 2008 9:08 AM:

" Puppy - Again all you guys have are insults and assumptions to make yourself feel better. I guess if I cared enough I could go back and look, but I don’t. Technically if you count my wife we make more than that so I guess the statement is accurate. Believe what you wish to get you through the day, doesn’t change mine at all.

I’ll retire at 57 or 58 with as much income as when I was working. Didn’t even need a club card to accomplish that! What do you know!

I know it requires reading skills, but I did say who my employer is genius. And why is it so hard to believe that we go to the Ozarks on weekends? I'm not sure what the big deal is with that. Because you live in a trailer doesn't mean everyone has that lifestyle.

Who’s the wannabe ILLINI! LOL "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 30, 2008 5:29 PM:

" VOR2 - Just one other question. (no intellect was used to form this question) I notice your favorite word of frustration on us wannabes is nitwit. I would guess you watched a lot of the three stooges as a growing child. That was one of Moe's favorite words. My question is simple. Is Moe your role model? Now that explains a lot. Case closed. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 30, 2008 4:56 PM:

" VOR2 - Thank-you for taking time out from designing your spacer washer to reply. If you would read your own exact quotes in my last post, they answer your claims of what kind of money you make. (hint = line 3 - twice) The rest of what I said about education was not a claim but the truth. Now if you could in your next spare moments, try answering mine and illini-dog's questions from the previous posts, until your boss tosses you an assignment for another washer he wants you to design. Don't evade with savvy chatter. You’ve got two listeners on the side of that melon and a mouth that requested issues. Yet you choose to talk about my wannabe lifestyle. If you just want to blab then I’ll just go back to my speculation of your eating alone at the buffet and growing larger every day. What exactly is it you are looking for here? Companionship? Apparently you think I should be more impressed that you have been to the Ozarks a couple of times in a car that seats two if you could just find someone. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 30, 2008 4:48 PM:

" Not to answer for abacus but when it was said they make 60k a year you replied that you make twice that . Remmember?Everyone else does thats why you should say who your employer is unless the truth would embarrass you or expose the fraud you are.It's obvious you have a meaningless job with all this time to surf the net and all. Keep talking financial genius this is getting funnier all the time. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 30, 2008 4:39 PM:

" Wannabe; Now your a financial genius too? BWAA.LOL.Please tell us more since the laughter is getting louder too.You know you could really give us some more if you would just say who your employer is.I mean you make all this money and you say you have a beamer and go to the ozarks every weekend so surely you would brag on your employer too right?I mean your so credible and it's not like your trying to hide it or anything because that would seem like your embarrassed about it or something. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 30, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Abacus101 - Still waiting to see where I said I make 120K like you claim. Also would like more info on this "college education" you claim.

You guys are both just intellectual wannabes which is typical of a union member.

Keep sticking those bolts. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 30, 2008 8:12 AM:

" Puppy – Again just more self important insults and zero facts. Maybe you should get out of the union hall now and then and learn something.

With every post you continue to show this union mentality that has been the ruin of American industry. You just know it all and probably haven’t spent 10 minutes off the assembly line.

Good luck genius, I’m sure when MMMA closes you’ll have someone besides the union to blame.

Actually the laugher has become more pity on your posts. People are finding it hard to believe your arrogance even for a union nitwit.

I was an original DSM employee in 88 and left in 90 or so when I was 29 and graduated. Came here then. Been here almost 20 years so 7-8 more and I’m gone. What’s odd about that geniuses? It’s called smart financial planning. So much for catching anything but nice try.

BTW – I spent that Saturday on a lake in the Ozarks. I simply forgot it was Friday. But you know better so think what you want genius. Next Saturday too. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:48 PM:

" 2 points for ketchy for catching vor2 latest nonsense. He said he ''quit'' mmna and went back to school and got his engineering degree then he told abacus that he was in single digits until retirement. This is comical and entertaining watching the anti american fool be such a wannabe.I guess i'll keep throwing the bait for everyones laughter so keep em coming wannabe tool. Okay we are up to 3 points now for all the wannabes tales so enjoy. I'm still in the lead but this joker will give us plenty more laughter. Ozarks when you said you had to work last sat. is still my favorite.lol I guess that high priced computer at home doesn't work so we'll see your jokes tommorow morning although i'll be golfing most of the day and can't wait to get a good laugh. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 29, 2008 4:44 PM:

" Typo on last post. It should have been over 90% of the jobs going overseas are non union. I should type more slowly i guess. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 29, 2008 4:09 PM:

" Vor2 Fact is only 8% of all jobs in this country are union yet over 70% of the jobs being shipped overseas are non union so please explain your facts again genius.
Abacus believe me this tool has no friends and he is so desperate he tries to act like he has a whole floor laughing. I do know the union hall is not laughing they are shocked that such an anti american, anti union idiot can even call himself an american.Truth is he is not an american and more than likely is from india where alot of the lower paid engineers come from now days. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 29, 2008 4:01 PM:

" Vor2; Well i gave you every chance to play the facts game and again all you have is your idiotic nonsense or spin game that you call facts. I won't waste anymore time on this child but take some advice for once in your life and bring facts with you instead of your childish opinion next time. If your opinion was facts then that means freddie mac, fannie mae, aig and lehman bros. are all going overseas then huh genius? Simply put a union worker over in japan that makes more money is not going to make an engine cheaper to ship over here with the cost of shipping . The cost of a new car whether built in a union shop or non union costs the same. Yea your an engineer alright.lol "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:46 AM:

" Puppy – I’m not sure why you think I’m ‘desperate’ as I really have nothing to prove. The facts are there it’s just you choose to ignore them. This battle of wits is entertaining, but you have proved nothing other that you can dodge reality and make assumptions about me to make you feel better.

You’re industry and those with union labor are bankrupt. FACT. Businesses are flocking overseas to find a more reasonable business climate free of liberal government regulation and American labor unions demands. FACT. Point fingers wherever you choose, but the facts are facts.

The MMMA workers are standing on the deck of the Titanic and still making impossible demands. What part of Mitsubishi is broke don’t they understand? They can make all the claims they want about they did this and they did that, but THE MONEY ISN’T THERE!

The cars are overpriced junk and are not selling. I’d rather be a union worker than a Mitsubishi salesman trying to sell the Eclipse for 35K. Although they have something in common in that they will both be unemployed.

BTW – My computer at home probably cost more that your trailer. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:29 AM:

" Abacus – LOL I bet your “college education” taught you ‘everything’. I didn’t know NAPA offered degrees. This must be some jim-dandy degree if you are working on the line. You are too funny. Again: quote board material.
Dad must have been some kind of genius. Union member too?
Do you even know what a “CAD” is? LOLOLOL With every post you just prove my point.
It’s not just me laughing at your posts, you have a whole floor rolling in laughter.
You proved you can cut and paste, but I still don’t see that 120K claim.

Actually I went to the Ozarks both weekends, probably next one as well. Only 2 junk union made cars on the trip this time. Union made roads were junk as always.

Without me you club card holders wouldn’t know where to stick your bolts. It’s my direction you are following so I make it as simple as I can for you. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 29, 2008 8:18 AM:

" Puppy – Gee why would I assume a nick in this part of the country with Illini in it would refer to the U of I? LOL Now come up with something else so that you are not such a wannabe.
Again you are all assumptions with no facts. Don’t worry though, it’s a typical union member trait.
Why don’t you give me the facts on how it’s cheaper to build engines here and enlighten me. Or the union propaganda on why cars built at a non-union plant cost the same. I’m just dying to hear the spin. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 26, 2008 7:20 PM:

" Abacus 101; Like i said this joker is a fraud. All he has now is calling names and worrying about my handle. Since he doesn't have a computer at home or the net[notice how he never posts after 5] we'll see if he wants to play the facts game.If you follow his posts enough you see the lies.Last friday he said he would take off work tomorrow[saturday] and keep this up if i wanted to and then this week he said he went to the ozarks last weekend. What a tool.I know it's sad but this wannabe is getting more desperate and comical. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 26, 2008 5:14 PM:

" VOR2 said "Please tell me where I said I make 120K?" More of his quotes below.
"It’s easier to just run from the truth than confront it isn’t it?"
"I think I'll quit my office 8-5 making twice what you do for my club card back!"
"Sorry but I was not laid off from anywhere, let alone MMMA. And sorry again but i actually make significantly more than I was when I was there. Finished my education and moved on to more properous things."
Vor2 also said "I guess sticking a bolt in a hole makes you an expert huh?" No that's not what makes me the expert. I do however have college education that would far exceed your knowledge under the hood. Prior to that, I had a father that taught me all that college could never teach.
Just because you have that piece of paper from a college and sit in front of a CAD daily doesn't make you everything about everything. When you try to act like you are some big kingpin we just laugh at you like you do at us. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 26, 2008 4:30 PM:

" Vor2; As soon as you can prove that a car made at a non union plant cost less than one made at a union plant or when you can prove that it is cheaper to import engines then have them built here then we will move on with the facts game. Until then you are all talk and opinion without any facts and if your not smart enough to realize that i can't help you. I have never seen any facts from you and if your really a engineer then you would notice that like everyone else has ats man. Engineer lol,lol. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 26, 2008 4:19 PM:

" Vor2; Sorry i was out golfing all day and just got in.I see your meaningless job allowed you plenty of time to surf the net all day again. I have never seen any facts from you and only opinions and assumptions that are wrong like usual. Good to see you like supporting wal mart and i mean by your tax dollars paying for their employees insurance not the money you send to china thru them.
P.s The illini in my handle has nothing to do with illinois but like usual your assumption is wrong and your not smart enough to figure it out. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 26, 2008 3:46 PM:

" Puppy - Hopefully they have those fine union made cars towed off the road by now. I'll let you know how many I see this weekend.
Hopefully they are woken up some union guys to patch the fine union made roads too. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 26, 2008 3:44 PM:

" What's the matter dog? Cat got your tounge? "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 26, 2008 9:32 AM:

" Abacus101 - Not sure what you consider a "newbie", but i'm probably single diget years from retirement. Please tell me where I said I make 120K? I guess sticking a bolt in a hole makes you an expert huh? LOL Just keep sticking that bolt where we Engineers tell you to OK?

More word games to distract from the real issues you cannot defend.

puppy - You just know all huh? LOL When you cannot defend your position, attack your conqerer. It's true I am a wannbe, I'm exactly what I wannbe. NOT A NITWIT union MEMBER! lol Do you have any facts or just your inaccuracte assumptions? You never did answer my question about you attending the U of I or if your moniker just shows you to be a 'wannabe'. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 25, 2008 9:20 PM:

" Abacus 101; This tool is no engineer. He is nothing but a wannabe that is consumed by jealousy and envy . No one really cares what someone else makes unless it is more than them and they don't have the ''club card'' otherwise they would not be so jealous which is obvious with everything this joker whines and complains about. Face it ..he wouldn't be here crying about it if he had a meaningful job that paid better and was time consuming instead of trolling the net with a dead end job with nothing better to do than surf the net. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 25, 2008 7:30 PM:

" VOR2 - I went to a good friend with 30 years in CAT engineering and asked him what newbies like you would make there. While it's not the $120K you claimed it's not bad. Just try telling the truth next time. It's not as much though as we make with our benefits provided by our "club card" as you call it. Guess you should have stayed here. He said "I am not sure, but would think it would be around $70k-$80k. That would be the pay, with the potential of Short-Term Incentive Plan (STIP) being another, on average, 10-15%. ($77k-$92k) These numbers may be a little high. Of course there are company 401k match $'s to consider, which is 100% of up to 6% contributed by the employee. So if you are at $70k, contribute 6% / $4200, then the company kicks in $4200. New hires now are not in the standard, traditional retirement plan, rather it is a "portable" 401k you take with you that you can cash out, will to your estate, etc. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 25, 2008 5:22 PM:

" VOR2 said "Thanks but if I need something that I engineer and build explained to me I doubt you would be able to." Come now Mr. Reason. Are you trying to say that you build and design automobiles or tractors or such the like? I would speculate that you are designing something more like a bearing spacer washer or an air cleaner bracket. The "something that I engineer and build" is the most laughable thing you have posted to date. You are funny indeed. You are probably more like light-years away from designing something like even a combustion chamber since you would first have to know what one is. When you go home at night and get the Play-Doh out, that's not credit for working on your master’s degree either. It is good however to have high self esteem. That’s why I offered to give you a tour under the hood. Knowing more than basic dipstick 101 would be a bonus. I have all those skills and am not afraid to share them. I might just turn you from the Darkside. Afraid? "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 25, 2008 12:11 PM:

" Abacus101 - If I wouldn't let these nitwits build me a car why would I let them touch my house which is 10 times more expensive? LOL You are a hoot.

Thanks but if I need something that I engineer and build explained to me I doubt you would be able to. But thanks for the offer. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 25, 2008 10:45 AM:

" Puppy- Sadly the cars on the interstate is true, 6 of them in the 370 some mile round trip. Your high quality union made interstate needs fixed AGAIN too. Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.

Don't know what benefits ATS gets as I've never been employed by them. They don't have any employees in this dept that I'm aware of either or I would ask. Sorry.

The responsibilities of my job you couldn't possibly understand but it's a touch more complicated then sticking a bolt in a hole. As long as it still pays what it does though I’ll be happy.

I do spend a lot of money at non-union Wal-Mart Supporting the 1000’s of American workers and American stockholders of it. I also shop at non-union Cubs. Thanks for asking. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 24, 2008 5:00 PM:

" Duffer45 - It's ok to just say you don't have an answer for the two questions. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 24, 2008 4:57 PM:

" VOR2 said "When you are on the picket line I’m the one with a job driving by tossing pennies." That would be a great idea to come by to toss some pennies. I'd like to see the Beamer up close. If you stop and raise the hood I'd be glad to explain to you what you are looking at. Don't fret, as I can bring it down to terms that you will understand. Also did you opt for the "steptronic auto transmission" or is it a standard? Also where on earth do you fit the kids or grandkids in that thing, or are they just another monthly payment that didn't get to go along? Just one more question and I've got to run. Some at Mits speculate who is who in these posts and what they are doing now. There are regular sightings. This is not pertinent to weight gain or anything like that. It's more like the board game of clue. Are you the guy who sent hourly people to his house to reroof it and fixed their time cards and let Mits foot the bill? "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 23, 2008 9:37 PM:

" Vor2;Yes i know ats and vsi workers get breaks too and their is no need to call anyone since you have proven you must have a meaningless job that is not important to have all this time to waste on the net.
Let me know if anyone believes your nonsense story about the vehicles on the side of the road so i can sell them some oceanfront property in arizona too. Like usual your wrong on the engines but since all you have is your opinion and no facts i'll just let it go. You know you should go to wal mart and spend some money there to help china since you have helped germany out with your car purchase.What a true american you are, LOL "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 23, 2008 6:36 PM:

" Abacus 101; Yes duffer 45 and vos2 are from the same anti american , anti union crowd. No duffer45 the question is.. why do vehicles built at non -union shops cost the same as vehicles built at union shops? This is of course the same type of vehicle or even the same one. You can't compare a 50k viper to a toyota corolla. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 23, 2008 4:58 PM:

" Duffer45 – What “3 year old” comparable insults were in my last two posts? You keep reminding me of my maturity level, then also remind me of VOR2 having the right to say what he wants also. I see how you stand up to me with a parental reprimand and then pat him on the head and say “say whatever you want”. I treat my kids all the same. Was it an insult to observe and comment that you and your comrade VOR2 were beginning to only talk to each other? Now back to the questions I asked. I’ll be more specific. #1)Why aren’t non-union Toyota and Nissan cars built in the USA lower priced then comparable Chevys, Fords and Chryslers? #2)CAT only wanted to make even more money when they gutted the Union there. As you stated “(Labor Unions)perverted themselves into greedy self-important entities that do more harm than good”. Expand please. When did the CAT Union there ever break the back of that company prior to what CAT forcing them to cut back or quit? I directed those questions to you alone and do again, insult free. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 23, 2008 8:48 AM:

" ISU-Puppy – Sadly again but things are not as you assume. I am an internal and union workers aren’t the only ones who get breaks and time to do other things. So call whomever you wish, it will fall on deaf ears.
Are you saying that engines would be cheaper to build here with all you little club card members? LOL That doesn’t take much research to figure out.

Abacus101 – Who is tired of union bashing? No one I know so again you are not correct.

Have fun guys – When you are on the picket line I’m the one with a job driving by tossing pennies.

PS – Spent the weekend in the Ozarks – The Beemer ran great. Passed about 6 American made cars broke down on the interstate which needs union repaired - AGAIN. "

Duffer45 wrote on Sep 23, 2008 8:16 AM:

" Abacus101 --- Since you seem incapable of debating without insults, I’d rather enjoy VOR2 company than yours. You remind me of my 3-year old. Grow up.
The cars I’m aware of that are not American Union built in this country, and I’m not car buff or expert in any way, are things like Mercedes and BMW. Are you telling me these cars should be priced the same as Chevrolets?
I still believe VOR2 has his right to say what he wants. I don’t agree with all of the content or maturity level, but he has the right.

Illini-Dog --- I didn’t say I didn’t believe you, I said it just seemed unlikely they would unionize and not ask for more money. If they did, then they did. I don’t have any source on this, but I would bet most that unionize do ask for more money. Just my opinion

Guys it’s been fun, but we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Good luck. I hope things work out. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 22, 2008 8:20 PM:

" Abacus 101; What i find funny is vor2 says they have a board at work with the quote of the day. Can you imagine that..''hey boss this is my post'' then the boss says ''well good post and maybe you should just stick with that all day then''. Too funny. He more than likely works for vsi or ats. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 5:34 PM:

" Duffer45 said "I doubt the threats about VOR2’s superiors have much validity." Don't worry this is nothing serious enough for me to turn him in. He may even have freedom to roam, or kill and waste time. But when he roams into a forum and attempts to, in a polished way call people dumb and ignorant, then someone else might just call erroneously call him fat to backslap him for his candor. At this point maybe you and VOR2 will just have a nice conversation with each other and enjoy each other’s Company. People seem to have tired from the same old Union bashing smear that also holds no substance in itself either. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 5:06 PM:

" Duffer45 - "Again, no offense" but I didn't expect less when I returned trash talk back at trash talk. As much as you believe I don't get it, I do understand plenty of what you say. I just disagree that Unions are what have destroyed the industrial base in this country. CAT only wanted to make even more money when they gutted the Union there. When did the Union there ever break the back of that company prior to that? This question has been asked before - Why aren't the non union built cars in this country selling for less money? - I've not heard a reply to that from any here that have it all figured out. According to our builds we are still near 25 man hours per build. Whether others make what we do or less how much is it? Will anyone there find it fair when they out source a portion of CAT’s engineering to India to people making $14,000 a year? Maybe $28,000 will be an adequate wage in engineering. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 22, 2008 4:24 PM:

" Vor2; The days of the union holding a gun to the companies head have been over for years and they have made many concessions. If you are referring to the lazy workers who thought they worked for the union instead of cat then yes i can agree with you on that but their are lazy workers in every field and those that spend time on the internet instead of doing their job too as i'm sure you can agree with that .

Are you sure it's cheaper to make engines overseas?Please do a little research on that and let me know. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 22, 2008 4:13 PM:

" Duffer 45; Like i said they never got anymore money and it was not about money. I don't know why you cannot accept that. Again.. it is not always about money . No one said a maid should make 50k a year. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 10:08 AM:

" Duffer45 - You are probably right, but it's just the stupidity of it all.

unions have held a gun in the ribs of corporations for years and now can't figure out why industries are shutting down. My distain is not for all of the union people. Just people like these two ya-hoos who try and rationilize their methods.

In fact, I have helped train many people from the layoffs of a few years ago into the Engineering and IT fields and much of that was as a volunteer.

Most of them have my sympathy, but the hard cores "union yes" bumper sticker wearers never will. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 9:59 AM:

" Big_Guy - You know honestly I hope it's not coincidence. I hope that they are going to make the Lancer and Outlander at the plant. I hope they go 3 shifts again and have to add on to the plant. I hope they build the engine plant here too and hire 100's of club card members.

More than that, I hope the the union learns that they can bleed a company dry even if the company is making billions with outragious demands. Businesses run in cycles, and if unions continue to demand the world when companies are doing well, they cannot survive the inevitable down cycle like we're in now.

Sadly, my guess is that union greed will pervail over common sense. "

Duffer45 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 9:43 AM:

" VOR2 --- I think you have made your point. I agree with much of what you say, but these are people's lives at stake here, you could be a little more compassionate. "

Duffer45 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 9:01 AM:

" Illini-Dog --- The maids could have a significant cost to the hotel. If they were paid to work 10 hours but now have to work 8, more might have to be hired. I’m not saying that happened because I’m not familiar with the situation. I doubt the schedule was all that was ‘adjusted’. Wages and benefits were probably ‘adjusted’ as well.
Not everyone at a hotel maid qualification level can make 50k a year and have our economy survive. I would love to see it, but it won’t work. I don’t want to see people beaten or making .50 an hour either, but the 12,000 idle and a truck driver making 100K is the result of unchecked Union demands. In a capitalistic society, market forces should drive salaries not Unions. Modern labor laws protect people from being overworked, child labor, time off ect. Labor Unions had a time when they were needed, now a days I’m not sure. My husband was in a Labor Union and feels their necessity is questionable as well.
I respect your position, and glad you did well with them, but I just don’t think we’re going to agree. "

Duffer45 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 8:54 AM:

" Abacus101 --- Again, no offense, but I think the only thing you proved is that you can be as childish as VOR2. Don’t complain about them when you do the exact same thing. If that’s how VOR2 feels I think they have the right to express that whether you agree with the message or tone or not, wouldn’t you agree? It’s an open forum and if you don’t like the views then debate them, ignore them or move on. If VOR2 was just looking for a reaction as you state, why do you give them the satisfaction?
I doubt the threats about VOR2’s superiors have much validity. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 7:52 AM:

" SpitFire - Gee where to start. No, I doubt a VP would take 30K a year because their qualifications make them worth more than that in the business world. Where can high school graduates make 50K a year other than with the club card?

Why build an engine plant here when they are cheaper to make there and ship here? Why cheaper there? Yup - 1000's of American club card holders.

Why with all of this first-rate Union Labor where there "piles of cars outside needing repair"? "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 22, 2008 7:45 AM:

" Abacus101 – LOL You know squat. If anyone in “the upper echelon” at CAT wants to know “what I’m up to” just have them ask me. Do you think I’m trying to hide from anyone? Your and isu-puppy’s quotes are on the quote board so I’m pretty sure people know. Last I heard the 1st amendment still was in force was it not? My opinions are my opinions and I’ve never said I speak for CAT. So give ‘em a call.
I know almost ‘everyone’ in the your ‘upper echelon’ at Cat and I think you would be surprised and who would side with me, they may not say it at parties because it’s not PC, but push comes to shove 95% are on my side. Sorry.

This magic 'filter' you need doesn't exist either. But nice try.

ISU-Puppy – I guess CAT financials from accounting directly can’t really be trusted in your opinion huh? You still have no clue what you are talking about in this arena. "

big_guy wrote on Sep 20, 2008 7:19 PM:

" 1. Mitsubishi's Tokyo headquarters, say they aren't considering closing the Illinois factory. 2. An article posted at work tells us, the President of Mitsubishi says the plant in Japan can't keep up with demand for the Lancer, and will have to rely on help from its overseas partner. 3. New seat pallets have been spotted in the plant, that don't fit the seats of any cars we build. There was an Outlander in the Body Shop crib. There was a Lancer in the Final Assembly crib. 4. The rumors about IPM and the Steel Workers, having contracts to put in new lines for new vehicles. 5. The fact that they have't shut the doors on us already. Coincidence????? "

SpitFire wrote on Sep 20, 2008 11:18 AM:

" Don`t blame the workers for the shape the company is in ! Years ago we had vehicles piled up outside that needed repairs. The company paid us overtime on a daily basis (including weekends) to ready these vehicles for shipment. Then along comes Rich Gilligan with several other retired Ford personnel to save the day ! He intrumented what he called the 5-Star program to fix vehicles on-line even if it meant stopping the line. Although we do try to rectify any issues before it leaves the area that little program was a farce, since they have a fit if the line even stops for 30 seconds ! "

SpitFire wrote on Sep 20, 2008 10:22 AM:

" For years there was talk about building an engine plant close to our facility. This would have brought more jobs to Central Illinois, and saved a considerable amount of money ! Instead we continue to use engines in our vehicles that have to be imported from Japan !!! "

SpitFire wrote on Sep 20, 2008 10:05 AM:

" Here is something for all those people that state MMNA is on the way out. In an article dated Sept. 17th on Bloomberg.com analysts have said that workers may have to accept job cuts or lower wages in a new contract. It also states that Tokyo-based Mitsubishi has said it isn`t considering closing the Illinois factory !!! NOTE : With having the only plant in North America Japan receives some sort of tax breaks for every vehicle they bring here from overseas, which in my opinion they don`t really want to lose !! "

SpitFire wrote on Sep 20, 2008 9:23 AM:

" VOR2 wants to remark about engineers, but most of them at MMNA don`t even have a degree in this field ! A large percentage of the engineers at the plant were promoted to this position from group leader spots ! Hmmm !!! The REAL engineers that design the vehichles are in Cypress, California which brings me to another point. If they are sooo concerned about saving money, then why not move these operations to Illinois ???? "

SpitFire wrote on Sep 20, 2008 9:12 AM:

" If MMNA needs the employees to take such drastic cuts then why would they offer one of their V.P.`s $30K to stay with the company ? "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 6:03 PM:

" Duffer45 - Now that ALL at Mits are facing continuous change regardless of why, it is not easy for any to be laughed at and made fun of for having only a High School or lesser education. If any here want to further their jollies with VOR2 then have at it. Yes I enjoyed it when his cuts annoyed me, so I made up accusations which appeared to affect his grammar in his next post. I know very well, a small handful in the upper class at Cat, one of which whose next step will be a VP move. That said, none of those I know in the upper echelon, let alone friends and relatives in engineering or Defense Products would resemble or put up with VOR2. I do also know two individuals he would likely be subordinate to if he’s in engineering, that could filter for his screen name “Voice of Reason2” and see what he’s up to. Again I might be accused of making this up, but just like the case of the Beamer/Corvette this is very true. Anyone else here rock-on and spit in my face if you like. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 5:59 PM:

" Duffer45 - VOR’s 2nd post “They (the engineers) don’t have to sacrifice their bodies to make a living because they got an education, not a club card. Figure it out who’s the smarter of the two." While this is a true statement it dripped with the I’m better than you, please have class envy for me. For many people at Mitsubishi college would never be their thing. For those of us who have a college education but pursued Mitsubishi for whatever other reason it is very easy to stay where you are when things were ok and the money was decent. As it has been stated here before, not everyone can sit in the office and design something. And yes I believe I’m not overpaid for making half of Mr. VOR2 the engineer. If I went back 25 years, I did original design and detail work for CAT partime. (tool design holding fixtures). For me then receiving $15 hour for sitting at a desk and drawing, I thought I was overpaid. "

abacus101 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 5:58 PM:

" Duffer45 – While it is true that I have hurled many insults here, mainly at one person, my motive was to prove a point. VOR2’s first post contained this “Unions have held companies hostage to pay people ridicules wages to high school graduates (maybe) just because they had a little club card.” It was and still is my belief that you don’t need to dumb someone down to enter a discussion. If you were to read my pre VOR2 posts I will accuse someone of being a troll and also throw some sarcasm into the mix. (a troll is a very common name for someone who enters a discussion with the sole purpose of stirring up trouble). I know that personal attacks are meaningless, but in this case when the troll gets personal within the topic, yet reveal nothing of their own ability they need to be identified as such. Look at the content differences of your posts and his. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 4:13 PM:

" Duffer45; The instance where the maids unionized was a set work schedule with planned days off and 8 hour work days. It did not cost the employer anything but it was something the hotel would not give them without a union contract. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 4:08 PM:

" Vor2 Did you even read my last post.What have i been saying all along?YOU are the idiot that thinks i'm making up cat profit but when i tell you were i get it you don't believe it. Then you say you know someone in accounting that tells you different all the while i have been telling you it's common knowledge to the public. Man i really think you are 15 or just plain dumb. Reread my last post and if you can't understand that then you are beyond help. "

Duffer45 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:54 PM:

" Illini-Dog --- Most "better working conditions" can't help but cost money. Paid time off, benefits, holidays, less work load - these all have a real associated costs to them. Which ones are you refering to that don't?
Everyone needs to be treated with respect I agree. But, no offense, unions historically get this 'respect' by demanding more money or benefits.
I really doubt you are suggesting the the maids unionized to get 'respect'. Let's be honest with each other here. They unionized to get 'more'. Be it money or benefits, what they were after were 'more'. Same qualifications as before, but now they get 'more'.
Our economic structure simply cannot afford everyone getting 'more'. Again, it's sad but it's true. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:46 PM:

" ISU - INSIDER TRADING!!! LOL With PUBLICALLY AVAILBLE INFORMATION!! LOL That's just funny beyond belief. OH, give me a minute here......

You just continue to prove you know zip about what you are talking about puppy. "Profits" and expenses are freely available to anyone since CAT is a publically traded company.

You are out of your leauge here union nitwit.

It's best you do ignore me as you make a fool of yourself with every post.

The"beemer" is running great. Thanks for asking. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:38 PM:

" Vor2; This is the last time i waste any more time on your idiotic nonsense. Are you saying morningstar is lying when they post cats profit?Who are you calling in accounting? Do you expect anyone to believe they would give out profit amounts to you? Seriously . Have you ever heard of insider trading? Get real. They will tell you last quarter profits just like guess who..morningstar. So don't act like you know something when you prove you don't time after time. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:30 PM:

" ISU-Puppy - For me 4 more years would be a Master's degree, for you it would be your Freshman year.
No, we were referring to your post of 1:23PM which said QUOTE "Cat posted 1.1 BILLION in Profit". Nice try though. Do something you union guys are not used to doing and that is admit you made a mistake.

Duffer45 - Forget it, you are not going to talk intelligent to this robot.

V - Oh but this is so much fun. I agree that a majority of people in the plant are decent rational people. ISU-Puppy is a long way from either of those. Heck I'll take the day off tomorrow if he wants to keep this up, it way too entertaining. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:28 PM:

" Duffer 45; Their are always going to be unskilled people at the bottom and the better working conditions don't cost anything. Thats not a knock on those people but they deserve to be treated with respect like everyone.

V; your absolutely right and i will get back on topic and ignore the little troll from now on since he doesn't matter. All the mmna workers are in a tough spot and i hope it works out for them . If it means getting a job guarantee to take a pay cut then maybe that is the route to go and if the company is losing money then you have to do what you have to do. Good luck "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:20 PM:

" Let's see vor2 claims to make 2300 a week and have an important job but he surfs the net all day, then says union members are dumb while we get a great pension and says he is not jealous or envious. Yep you got us all fooled ''proud american''
Durfer45 i like having banter with you since you seem mature and level headed but please don't assume everything is about money when it is not. The only ones that worry about money are those like vor2 that don't have it but try and act like it and think they fool people when they do not.How's the beamer running. lol "

Duffer45 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:08 PM:

" Illini-Dog --- But don't these "better working conditions" cost the employer more money? Yes they do so what's the difference? It's still expenses that have to be passed along to the consumer. Sorry, but I still feel that if they want a 'better life', then go quallify for it with a skill other than changing sheets.
I hate to see people and families suffer as wages go down, but it's a global economy these days and companies have to compete in that arena. Maytag and the companies you mentioned had a very difficult decision to make: continue to pay union scale wages which raised the cost of their products or move to a more labor friendly environment so they could continue to compete against companies that didnt have those costs.
I'm sure there were other costs involved, yes even management, but labor is a big one in any industry.
US companies that continue to have those expenses are doomed to fail in this global economy. It's sad, but it's reality. "

V wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:04 PM:

" ILLINI-DOG AND VOR2; would you 2 please grow up and find something better to do? And please quit insulting the men and women that work at this plant. Especially the ones who are working very hard to negotiate this contract and do what's best for their beloved UAW family. My thoughts and prayers go out to all who are effected by this stressfull situation. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:02 PM:

" VOR2; umh i think 1 billion minus 980 million equals 20 million but like usual you assume things that are not there. Remember we was talking about a billion right. So if i said 980 million then i was off 20 million right. Do i need to go over this again or are you going to keep playing stupid? I know, i know the answer to that one. It has nothing to do with the 1.1 billion profit from last year we was talking about a billion . Is that clear enough for you or do you need 4 more years at u of i? Keep grasping for straws man you look weaker all the time. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 2:58 PM:

" ISU - Do you even know what 6 sigma is?

So if you are paying taxes on this "profit" it's not really money you get to keep is it? So it's not really what we were talking about now is it? Duh.

I don't need MSN or other sources, I called Accounting. I guess your sources should know better though right?

We put some of your quotes up on the Quote of the Day board so you are now literally the poster child for union ignorance now. Congrats.

Too funny. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 2:33 PM:

" ISU-Puppy - 1.1 Billion minus 980 Million is not 20 Million genius. LOL Call up 5 more union guys and see if you can put your heads together and figure it out.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 2:20 PM:

" Vor2; You can find many sources like morningstar or even msn to give you profits for every company you want, it's not real hard if you know what i mean. Heck i bet they even come up with a novel idea and start posting quarterly profits sometime soon. Maybe you can do a 6 sigma project for that and really impress the boss. LOL. Oh and yes you do have to pay taxes on your profit but i thought you understood that. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 2:11 PM:

" Duffer 45; like i said it wasn't about the money and they did not get anymore , it was about better working conditions. Nobody should make 50 k cleaning rooms and i never said that, you should get paid what your trade is worth. I even agree with vor2 that a forktruck driver should not get paid 75k but when i left cat ,they had done away with all indirect labor and they were not union jobs anymore. The janitors, crib and other indirect labor was outsourced and paid around 12 an hour. Again it's not always about the money. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 2:02 PM:

" Duffer45; Maytag is the first one that comes to mind moving over 5k jobs to mexico. Almost every call center has been moved overseas and these were good paying jobs that supported families here. Ibm, microsoft and cannon are all corporations that have moved jobs overseas when they were making profits here. Why? I don't understand why when they are making profit here and supporting this country they would do that. With our tax code being one of the highest i guess i can understand so i blame the politicians just as much. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 1:49 PM:

" ISU - I guess I wouldn't expect you to understand accounting, but this 1.1 Billion you talk about is nowhere close to the actual after tax profit actually earned by CAT. In other words what CAT actually keeps after taxes and such is nowhere close to 1.1 Billion. If it is I'm demanding a raise. Oh wait I don't have the little club card so I can't do that.

What's your source? Please don't say the union hall or I will die laughing. My source is Accounting in Peoria who got a good chuckle from your figures. Union Guy? They asked. How did they assume that? LOLLOL "

duffer45 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 1:43 PM:

" Illini-Dog --- Well then motel workers should find an occupation that provided them better working conditions and paid holidays. They clean hotel rooms, this isn't brain surgery. So now they are unionized and get their benefits and holidays and who pays for that? We do in higher hotel prices. If they can't live within their means, then they either need to lower their standard of living or qualify themselvs for something better. It's a land of opportunity I think someone has mentioned, but this opportunity has to be taken, not just handed out free. Everyone cleaning hotel rooms or similiar menial jobs cannot make 50K a year. It would be a great thing, but it just won't work.
I think this is the basis of our difference of opinion. "

illini-dog wrote on Sep 19, 2008 1:39 PM:

" Oops. Those figures were from 2007 and they only made 980 million profit for the first quarter this year. Sales were only 11.7 Billion. I guess i was off by 20 million but whats a few million here and there.So please tell us this great job you have that pays 2300 a week like you claim and gives you time to surf the net all day. "

Voice of Reason2 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 1:34 PM:

" Duffer45 – You are probably right. My parents always told me “if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas”. And most of the Harley riding unions workers I know probably have fleas.

It’s just that it’s fun to actually watch these jokers try and support 12,000 employees being paid to do nothing and fork lift drivers making 100K then wondering why plants and are shutting down and industries are moving overseas. Oh yea, “million dollar bonuses for management”